I've read every one of these posts , and all the posts from the other thread debating this issue to complete ad nauseum . I find it near incomprehensible that so many highly intelligent people could get this involved in debating the semantics of any issue . I was present at that particular SWN , and the "protest" was lodged by a competitor for what was felt were valid and applicable reasons . Now we are all semantically debating the rules change , that was brought about by someone who stretched the rules beyond what was acceptable . So here we go again . Does it apply to Harris Bi-pods ? Does it apply to Joy-Pods ? Does it apply to Flex-Pods ? Does it apply to Joy-Pod pads ? .....Seriously ? Sounds almost like fans from other sports arguing about any rules change that "THEY" think will hurt "THEIR" team . When I first came into F-TR ; I read the , then current rules , and got a 3/4" piece of Marine plywood . Cut it to the allowable size limit , and covered it with mouse-pad material . IT'S NEVER BEEN A RULES ISSUE !...... ANYWHERE ! I have seen front boards at matches that left no doubt in anyone's mind as to the "intent" of the User . Boards that literally had slots milled in them , and covered with 1980's shag carpet . After two or three shots , you could see the "tracks" in the carpet , so let's all stop with the piety , please . I should think that if a future issue regarding a Harris Bi-pod or Flex-Pod comes up in the future , it will be handled in the "Best spirit of the Rules" , by the Match Director . Less yakking , and more shooting , please ?
NRA Rule Change - F-T/R
- Thread starter DE-F-Open
- Start date
And if the rules are going to get re written for a couple butt hurt shooters, then you should re word it for EVERYTHING that is used so this stuff doesn’t come up.
The way it is written is that Harris type bi pods are illegal and that is gonna stop a lot from coming into the sport.
The wrong thing we want. Plain and simple
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Matt , I think the point I was trying to make was , nothing is being accomplished by this constant back and forth because the Harris Bi-pod , Flex-Pod , and other types of specific "Legged" Bi-pods weren't semantically addressed in this rules change . Personally ; I would think that since these types of Bi-pods were the foundation of F-Class they would , and should be "Grand-fathered" , as both allowable , and LEGAL . That's why I don't understand all the fuss being made over the whole thing . Address your complaint to the Rules Committee , and have them take it up , "In session" . And repeating your post for a third time will not make it any more palatable . Just redundant .
Same as yours.
i don’t need to go to the committee because if I am complaining about that instead of reflecting on why I couldn’t win, then that’s an issue and I don’t need a participation trophy.
The original rule did NOT need to be changed. The shooters attitude did.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
"It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet, nor may the combination of bipod feet and/or pad materials create a track. The pad surface should be smooth enough to allow the bipod to be moved in any direction without having to lift the rifle or move the pad that the bipod is on."
This rule specifically discusses tracks. There are no tracks with any non-siding bipod like a Harris, Flex, LRA, Atlas etc... If you are trying to make it apply you are borrowing problems that don't exist. The statement "...allow the bipod to be moved in any direction without having to lift the rifle or move the pad that the bipod is on..." is being taken out of context for this argument.
This rule specifically discusses tracks. There are no tracks with any non-siding bipod like a Harris, Flex, LRA, Atlas etc... If you are trying to make it apply you are borrowing problems that don't exist. The statement "...allow the bipod to be moved in any direction without having to lift the rifle or move the pad that the bipod is on..." is being taken out of context for this argument.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Is it? As a general rule, people seem to read whatever they see fit into a rule if it fits their objective. As written, the part of the rule regarding the bipod being able to move in any direction without lifting the rifle does not specify that it is aimed at any particular type of bipod. For that reason, it potentially encompasses all bipods. People can easily post in this thread and claim this new ruling will never be used in the context of a Harris-type bipod. However, there is no way to know that with any certainty. That is merely a guess. It might be correct, it might not. As the rule is currently written, it could be used in that context, and that is all that really matters. Until such an event were to happen and someone lodged a complaint, we have no way of knowing with any certainty in advance how it might be applied in the future. How many people a year or two ago would have correctly predicted that some tracks in a shooter's carpet bipod pad would have the result it has had, i.e. leading to a rule change?
The simplest and most certain way to ensure this modified ruling is never applied to a Harris-type bipod is to specifically word the new ruling such that it is clear it is aimed at ski-type bipods. That is not nitpicking, it is not splitting hairs, it is merely being precise with the language so that the ruling is absolutely clear. The current version is not.
It’s actually more problematic than just the Harris bipod’s inclusion or not because it more broadly could stand for the proposition of not applying the rules literally, which could be invoked other places. This is not really under a spirit of the rules catch all umbrella, where rules are silent but fair is fair, such as no trading of shooting order or jamming a gun to substitute a better one, but an actual written rule - feet have to freely slide around.
**** It’s the second sentence of the rule that is the whole problem. If it were not there, the Harris problem goes away yet the objective of the amendment remains. ****
Harris bipods that slide around freely in all directions would be useless because we all load them. I was the last one I knew to be using them, in Open of course, outside club matches into 2015, and I know they shoot their best at Avery midstring after digging themselves in a half inch or more into the Martian-volcanic landscape of the 600, 800 and 900 yard lines. So, using them as designed definitely trips the rule, and yes, of course no one wanted to make life harder on the Harris, but with pinned rubber feet it’s never going to slide around, even on bare plywood, without picking it up. Some have spikes.
I think this is the second time the Harris bipod has fouled up the wording of the front rest rules. The first was when the open rule said you “may” use a front rest sandbag when must was intended. It did not simply say (I am supposing here) that you “must” use a sand bag in your rest because if it said that, then all bipods run afoul and of course it’s perfectly fine to use bipods in Open.
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If shooting on grass or soft surfaces and the bypod feet leave tracks its the same as leaving tracks on carpet or other surface.
LVLAaron
Gold $$ Contributor
Heh, that's my point. The rule might as well say you have to have a UHMW board for your bipod to rest on.
I agree and cant see the issue if a bipod feet leave a track mark during shooting on mat or carpet as can argue the same track marks can be left with a bipod ski feet on grass/soft ground.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
If the bipod leaves tracks in the grass, that means it probably killed a few blades of grass. Those few blades of grass will no longer be able to absorb CO2 from the atmosphere. Thus, anyone that uses a bipod that leaves tracks in the grass is causing global warming.
This above is merely my warped humor that makes about as much sense as some of the new rule stuff makes. I'm just going to shoot and not worry about it any more.
This above is merely my warped humor that makes about as much sense as some of the new rule stuff makes. I'm just going to shoot and not worry about it any more.
I have no issue competing in a ftr match against anyone shooting with a bypod with ski feet which leaves tracks in a carpet mat or on grass after firing their rifle
However if a shooter is penalised by leaving a few lines on his bypod mat whats to stop the shooter who leaves the same bypod marks on grass/soft ground also been penalised?
Steve Jennings
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes Mr Administrator,
That was our Mk 1 version. We have just finished development on our Mk 5. It works better and is less expensive. SJR Enterprises.com
Seb I've seen you use your pod pad with carpet stitched to the top. That carpet has loop pile. Your joypod has ski feet with slots milled into the bottom of the feet which happen to be the same width as the carpet loops.
The loops imbed into the slots and the gun tracks. Your an extremely smart guy and your products are well designed so I don't see this as a coincidence.
I've tested both all sorts of mats, carpets, boards etc etc etc and can get the gun tracking very well with materials that the bipod feet can imbed into so it is an advantage. I use a joyood and the advantage is that regardless of the height the feet stay at the same width so once you establish a grooves you can drop the feet straight back into those grooves and away you go.
The difficult thing is how to write a rule to specifically exclude it without people being excluded or others trying to undermine the intent.
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seb
Site $$ Sponsor
I wanted the bottom part to be thick enough to make it durable, not easy to dent etc so making grooves under the feet of the Joypod-X was a choice. For that reason previously I consulted with several people whom I believe understand more about the rules / regarding bipod. They said that there was no rule regarding limiting grooves at the bottom of the bipod.
Back in Wara Queens 2022 I put thin carpet on a podpad to experiment with. To my understanding carpet is OK/legal to use. But believe me that the carpet helped nothing! In fact it was difficult to return to its original position shot after shot so on the last days I ended up using the green mat provided by the WARA field.
Sunday GunDay: Seb Succeeds at WARA Match in Australia « Daily Bulletin
It's not often when a gun accessory designer/builder shoots a high-level international competition and finishes on the podium. Well Sebastian (Seb) Lambang did just that recently, earning the Silver Medal for finishing second overall (F-TR) at the West Australian Rifle Association (WARA) <a...
Thank you for the compliment but I am not that smart mate.
I was also at that match where Seb and Jason dominated. I can confirm they ended up shooting off the green mat which is sort of a cross between fine plastic turf and a dartboard. There was no advantage to them. They arrived with the most accurate rifles and knew how to use them. Pinjar range is not easy and they beat the field fair and square. I came 6th shooting off a joypod and pod pad. The following 2 years ftr was won with old style joypod feet on carpet.
Well unfortunately from my testing I find that it is an advantage to have feet that track on carpet.
At the same match your would probably remember a shooter who's joypod broke? Glue from the leg came loose I believe. That shooter was leant Jason or Sebs bipod and to his amazement, all of a sudden, he could get his rifle tracking in the 5 ring. I asked he what he thought the new articulating feet with rails and he said "yeah it's like cheating". That is from a guy that went from a joypod with flat feet on carpet to feet with rails machined into them and tracking on carpet without any other changes and had an instant improvement. I also overheard a shooter on the winning team say to one of the other members of their team "I need to pick my towel up quickly so the RO doesn't see the tracking marks". The advantages of electronic ear muffs I guess. If you want to play all innocent then go for it but those are a couple of facts.
Jason shot exceptional. Read wind in difficult conditions and shot his bipod off the canvas range mat. It was unfortunate that someone put a protest in for this "rests being joined" because he had his bipod and rear bag on the mat. That isn't the intent of the rule and didn't provide an advantage so should have been protested against.
At the same match your would probably remember a shooter who's joypod broke? Glue from the leg came loose I believe. That shooter was leant Jason or Sebs bipod and to his amazement, all of a sudden, he could get his rifle tracking in the 5 ring. I asked he what he thought the new articulating feet with rails and he said "yeah it's like cheating". That is from a guy that went from a joypod with flat feet on carpet to feet with rails machined into them and tracking on carpet without any other changes and had an instant improvement. I also overheard a shooter on the winning team say to one of the other members of their team "I need to pick my towel up quickly so the RO doesn't see the tracking marks". The advantages of electronic ear muffs I guess. If you want to play all innocent then go for it but those are a couple of facts.
Jason shot exceptional. Read wind in difficult conditions and shot his bipod off the canvas range mat. It was unfortunate that someone put a protest in for this "rests being joined" because he had his bipod and rear bag on the mat. That isn't the intent of the rule and didn't provide an advantage so should have been protested against.
seb
Site $$ Sponsor
Every shooter wants the best possible rifle, ammo, tools, equipment, setup etc including with the rest / bipod / bags / setup. Every percent (of anything) counts when someone wants to be competitive these days, correct? Every effort that is legal / allowed by the rules is fine, imho. Rule is rule. We do not "gaming?" the rules but only how to get the best possible outcome without breaking the rules. Innovation is a good thing. Time flows.
"Well unfortunately from my testing I find that it is an advantage to have feet that track on carpet."
Congratulations! I am happy to hear about it!
"At the same match your would probably remember a shooter who's joypod broke? Glue from the leg came loose I believe. That shooter was leant Jason or Sebs bipod and to his amazement, all of a sudden, he could get his rifle tracking in the 5 ring. I asked he what he thought the new articulating feet with rails and he said "yeah it's like cheating". That is from a guy that went from a joypod with flat feet on carpet to feet with rails machined into them and tracking on carpet without any other changes and had an instant improvement."
I also happy for him!
"Jason shot exceptional. Read wind in difficult conditions and shot his bipod off the canvas range mat. It was unfortunate that someone put a protest in for this "rests being joined" because he had his bipod and rear bag on the mat".
Sure he shot great!
I did not know what happened but there is always protester once in a while. Perhaps the protester thinking that he "feels?" defeated, or for other reason. We all shoot in the same time, same rules, same target same distances, etc. When someone wins that is because he/she is CAPABLE to win!
Let's we defeat ourselves rather than worrying about (unfortunately) our own problem! It's always easy to blame others / someone else or the equipment.
"That isn't the intent of the rule"
Could you please explain what is exactly the intent of the rule, i.e. in F-Class by your definition?
Cheers,
seb
It was easy to get the old flat feet joypod tracking in the 5 ring. The new ones were no different. I’ve had both and felt no advantage with either. I actually performed better with the old ones.
End of the day, there seems to be alot of politics on who uses what and which is the best or legal or not legal. God knows why people just can’t be happy to congratulate the winners and do their best to try better next time. I feel it’s become a bigger challenge to improve than it is to get upset and have a whinge these days. I’ve seen enough people turn on each other to pretty much not bother anymore. It’s more enjoyable to go hunting or take the kids out to the farm and plink some steel than it is to try and be involved with competitive shooting. Even if I promise the kids a farm trip and have to cancel it I feel less pressure than what I feel when going to an ftr shoot with a new front mat that hasn’t been verified before. There lies a bigger issue than carpet or feet construction- get the sport to where everyone is on a level playing field and willing to give credit where it’s due.
End of the day, there seems to be alot of politics on who uses what and which is the best or legal or not legal. God knows why people just can’t be happy to congratulate the winners and do their best to try better next time. I feel it’s become a bigger challenge to improve than it is to get upset and have a whinge these days. I’ve seen enough people turn on each other to pretty much not bother anymore. It’s more enjoyable to go hunting or take the kids out to the farm and plink some steel than it is to try and be involved with competitive shooting. Even if I promise the kids a farm trip and have to cancel it I feel less pressure than what I feel when going to an ftr shoot with a new front mat that hasn’t been verified before. There lies a bigger issue than carpet or feet construction- get the sport to where everyone is on a level playing field and willing to give credit where it’s due.
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