Would this be legal in F T/R

[RStewart]

i have raised an eye or 2 when i eat an swandwich and drink while shooting tho.

I get the same look when I pull and mark targets with one hand, while eating a bacon and egg biscuit in the other.

 

[Erik Cortina]

i have raised an eye or 2 when i eat an swandwich and drink while shooting tho.

I get the same look when I pull and mark targets with one hand, while eating a bacon and egg biscuit in the other.

Now I see why us F-Open shooter have to call for faster pit service! ;D

 

[memilanuk]

Mechanical Method was defined as a stop of any type.

So... does your club make the F-Open shooters remove any kind of fore-end stop from their front rests as well? Same wording is in their rest definition as well...

Normally the concern most places is over 'free-recoil' vs. 'must be fired from the shoulder'... sounds like at your club, it must be 'fired from the shoulder' - but you're forbidden from actually pushing into it. Weird.

Here's a hint for your local match director - their 'interpretation' is completely out of sync with the normally accepted version at large major events (read as: national and world championships).

campman,

If anything happens to 'trap' or 'capture' the bipod or anything else attached to the rifle, such that if you pick the gun up off the ground it would come with it - like those web straps in the above question - then that item gets added to the weight of the gun. So using the web straps would probably be a no-no, since I'd almost guarantee that when you lift the gun from the mat, they will hook/snag and "even slightly raises with the lifting of the rifle from its rest/firing point".

 

[mao0720]

Thats the great thing about the 1x1x18" piece of wood that I stapled to my mat, Straight edges means that the bipod feet dont hook or catch on it at all. Ill post some pictures of it when I can.

 

[RStewart]

Mechanical Method was defined as a stop of any type.

Normally the concern most places is over 'free-recoil' vs. 'must be fired from the shoulder'... sounds like at your club, it must be 'fired from the shoulder' - but you're forbidden from actually pushing into it. Weird.

Here's a hint for your local match director - their 'interpretation' is completely out of sync with the normally accepted version at large major events (read as: national and world championships).

campman,

If anything happens to 'trap' or 'capture' the bipod or anything else attached to the rifle, such that if you pick the gun up off the ground it would come with it - like those web straps in the above question - then that item gets added to the weight of the gun. So using the web straps would probably be a no-no, since I'd almost guarantee that when you lift the gun from the mat, they will hook/snag and "even slightly raises with the lifting of the rifle from its rest/firing point".

I am the Match Director that you and Dennis are referring to. If you go back and read my post a few posts back, it had nothing to do with loading a bipod or free recoil versus fired from the shoulder or F-Open rules versus FTR rules. It was about the use of the straps on the mat and/or pushing the legs of the bipod against the firing line board to aid in loading the bipod that raised the challenge. Basically the same as what you are saying to campman. And I also said I wrote the NRA for their interpretation, but have not hear back.
So, your "hint" is well taken, but sounds like my interpretation and yours are pretty much the same on the straps. But I am not a national or world championship director or world championship shooter, just someone trying to do his best. But thanks for assuming I'm wrong based on what someone else may have said happened and schooling me in the rules.

 

[RStewart]

i have raised an eye or 2 when i eat an swandwich and drink while shooting tho.

I get the same look when I pull and mark targets with one hand, while eating a bacon and egg biscuit in the other.

Now I see why us F-Open shooter have to call for faster pit service! ;D

We work for food.

 

[effendude]

The bottom line is if as a competitor, you want to push the rules to the limit leaving your actions or equipment open to a ruling by a match director, you run the risk of being disqualified. Where is the sportsmanship in that? The old adage "if your'e not cheating, your'e not trying" shouldn't apply to rifle shooting. This is precision rifle shooting, not NASCAR.

Scott

 

[memilanuk]

Rstewart,

My apologies, didn't know you were the MD in question. We do see some very odd interpretations of things at the 'local' level from time to time; sounds like you probably did the right thing with contacting the NRA for clarification - though I'll be surprised if you ever get an answer from 'em. If it was a matter of hooking in and pushing against the straps on the mat, I'd say I agree with you. Unfortunately that wasn't quite the way I read Dennis' earlier post on the topic; it gave the impression that *any* pre-loading of the bipod was not allowed locally. Either way, I apologize for getting a little too... vocal... on the topic.

Monte

 

[6BRinNZ]

do you guys see spikes on say a harris bipod as being ok? Spikes are part of the bipod and simply stick into the ground..

 

[DennisH]

do you guys see spikes on say a harris bipod as being ok? Spikes are part of the bipod and simply stick into the ground..

The above is OK. I read it in the NRA rules. Rick or myself will have to find it and post for you.

I couldn't find the NRA book tonight, but on this site it list the rule 3.4.7 and adresses spiked bi-pods:

http://centralalabamagunclub.com/main/files/5613/2632/3413/F-Class-Rifle-Rules.pdf

Let me know your thoughts on this, Dennis

 

[6BRinNZ]

do you guys see spikes on say a harris bipod as being ok? Spikes are part of the bipod and simply stick into the ground..

The above is OK. I read it in the NRA rules. Rick or myself will have to find it and post for you.

I couldn't find the NRA book tonight, but on this site it list the rule 3.4.7 and adresses spiked bi-pods:

http://centralalabamagunclub.com/main/files/5613/2632/3413/F-Class-Rifle-Rules.pdf

Let me know your thoughts on this, Dennis

Thanks Dennis - no need to go to any more trouble. I couldn't/can't see any issues - however since this thread covered off "interpretation" to some extent I thought I would ask...I'm kinda keen on trying sebs joystick bipod but with spikes...there could be some merit in it with the heavies.

Thanks again.

 

[Taildrag15X]

do you guys see spikes on say a harris bipod as being ok? Spikes are part of the bipod and simply stick into the ground..

The above is OK. I read it in the NRA rules. Rick or myself will have to find it and post for you.

I couldn't find the NRA book tonight, but on this site it list the rule 3.4.7 and adresses spiked bi-pods:

http://centralalabamagunclub.com/main/files/5613/2632/3413/F-Class-Rifle-Rules.pdf

Let me know your thoughts on this, Dennis

Dennis,

This Rule you stated is for F-Open Rests, not F/TR bi pods, there is no mention in the Rulebook about spikes on bi pods...NRA went through this with the "claw" feet thing last year and didn't answer any questions about "spikes".

Rule 3.4.1 Rifle Rests, (b)F/TR

(3) A bipod is a device with no more than two legs that touch the firing point. It must be rigidly attached to
the forend of the rifle. The bipod may have rigid or folding legs, and may be adjustable to compensate
for the uneven surface of the firing point.

Here's the link:

http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf

 

[Taildrag15X]

The bottom line is if as a competitor, you want to push the rules to the limit leaving your actions or equipment open to a ruling by a match director, you run the risk of being disqualified. Where is the sportsmanship in that? The old adage "if your'e not cheating, your'e not trying" shouldn't apply to rifle shooting. This is precision rifle shooting, not NASCAR.

Scott

Scott,

This is covered also in the Rules, where again many never read, Section 3. EQUIPMENT AND AMMUNITION:

3.18 General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these
rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden. The Match Director, Official
Referee, Jury Chairman or Supervisor shall have the right to examine a shooter=s equipment or apparel. The
responsibility shall be upon the competitor to submit questionable equipment and apparel for official inspection
and approval in sufficient time prior to the beginning of a match so that it will not inconvenience either the
competitor or the official.

 

[RStewart]

Rstewart,

My apologies, didn't know you were the MD in question. We do see some very odd interpretations of things at the 'local' level from time to time; sounds like you probably did the right thing with contacting the NRA for clarification - though I'll be surprised if you ever get an answer from 'em. If it was a matter of hooking in and pushing against the straps on the mat, I'd say I agree with you. Unfortunately that wasn't quite the way I read Dennis' earlier post on the topic; it gave the impression that *any* pre-loading of the bipod was not allowed locally. Either way, I apologize for getting a little too... vocal... on the topic.

Monte

Monte,
I appreciate it. Yes sometimes things can get presented in a way that may not convey exactly what was happening. I should have identified myself in my first post. The main thing is we want folks folks to come out and have a good time. We try not to bird dog them, but when this issue came up we looked at it.
I doubt I'll hear from the NRA either as this was several months ago.
Best of luck shooting,
Rick

 

[RStewart]

The bottom line is if as a competitor, you want to push the rules to the limit leaving your actions or equipment open to a ruling by a match director, you run the risk of being disqualified. Where is the sportsmanship in that? The old adage "if your'e not cheating, your'e not trying" shouldn't apply to rifle shooting. This is precision rifle shooting, not NASCAR.
Scott

Scott,

I could not agree more. It sems that lately there are those that want to "push" rules to try and gain some type of edge over the other competitors. That's why I shoot FTR, because the sky is not the limit when it comes to equipment and/or it's usage. We have recently had 2 people go High Master only shooting FTR with no boards or straps or spikes or any of that. One shoots a .308 on AI chassis with a Sinclair Tactical bipod.
I think your comment about not being NASCAR is a good one, as I have seen some really good shooters using moderately priced equipment win over folks with expensive equipment. It's about trigger time, wind reading and perceverence...at least to me.

Rick

 

[RStewart]

do you guys see spikes on say a harris bipod as being ok? Spikes are part of the bipod and simply stick into the ground..

The above is OK. I read it in the NRA rules. Rick or myself will have to find it and post for you.

I couldn't find the NRA book tonight, but on this site it list the rule 3.4.7 and adresses spiked bi-pods:

http://centralalabamagunclub.com/main/files/5613/2632/3413/F-Class-Rifle-Rules.pdf

Let me know your thoughts on this, Dennis

I have no opinion on this, at this time.

 

[effendude]

This has been a great bunch of posts. While we seem to generally be in agreement on the F/TR concept, it is interesting to see others interpretations of the rules. Unfortunately, many shooters seem to have adopted the attitude that if the NRA doesn't specifically prohibit something, that means it is allowed. Mike's reference to the NRA rule regarding the spirit of the sport is well done. I personally think spikes on the bipod feet fall into that category as well.

As a match director, I usually allow some questionable equipment to be used at club level shoots and leagues in an effort to get new shooters into the sport. Sort of a "shoot what you have" attitude. I will also take the time to inform the new shooter that some of their equipment isn't allowed at official Approved or Registered matches if they decide to pursue the sport further. For the first time in 7 years, we will also be weighing winning rifles at sanctioned matches due to some complaints last year. It will be interesting to see if any rifles are actually over weight or were there some sore losers making unjustified comments.

Scott

 

[mao0720]

do you guys see spikes on say a harris bipod as being ok? Spikes are part of the bipod and simply stick into the ground..

I asked this question a few months ago, and the answer I got was essentially that if it is just one spike per foot then it is fine, but if it is like those pod claws that have 3 contact points then its a No-Go.

 

[memilanuk]

I think (as I read that thread) that the issue was not the use of 'claws', as commonly seen (i.e. 3 'protrusions' approx. 1/4-1/2" long for getting a better grip), it was the use of five 2" long spikes ('claws') per bipod leg to literally anchor the dang thing in place (i.e. mechanical return-to-battery) that was protested and upheld.

Personally, as a match director, without seeing the exact wording of the NRA's response, I wouldn't take that as condemning any and all forms of 'claws' - just those that literally abuse 3.18 as expressed above.

Personally, as a competitor, I'd say I'd find it kind of foolish anyway, as such a system won't work very well if you ever go to a range with concrete pads on the firing line, or large enough rocks or hard clay a short distance under the gravel. What do you do when your 'system' doesn't work reasonably well on multiple surfaces? Having to shift to something at the last minute is never a good thing from a competition view point anyways. Maybe if the only places you shoot at have cushy grass firing lines, but those are comparatively rare where I shoot.

FWIW, I am almost positive that the early versions of the NRA HP rules for F/TR *did* mention something about limiting to 2" spikes, blahdy-blah, etc. Since the NRA has no versioning system to show what exactly what changes were made when, it's hard to tell if it ever was actually in there or when it got excised - or why.

YMMV,

Monte

 

[Taildrag15X]

Monte,

Yes I have to agree with you on that Monte, no references to "what use to be allowed" issue....it and many others including my favorite "no mono pod", since it's not in the rules I've seen new guys at 2 different Matches (1 Registered the other Approved) in both F-Open & F/TR using them.

Scott,

While I ran Approved & Registered Match we had a Tech Inspection prior to the Match, if there was as issue, be it weight, bi pod, mono pod, etc...the Tech Guy should of caught it or if the competitor had any questions it was the time to speak up. We caught one guy that had been shooting a 21.2 lb. rifle as F/TR for over 2 years because he swore up and down if it's .308 Win. it's F/TR.