ShtrRdy
Silver $$ Contributor
@Lead Slanger -- if you have a 600 yard range available, and if there are times when it's not windy, Ryan Furman likes to use this method.
New to load development and suffering from information overload
- Thread starter Lead Slanger
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Good post. I appreciate the info and the time it took to reply. Thank you, sir.
nwmnbowhunter
Silver $$ Contributor
I also try not to waste time.
First example is nosler ABLR.... notoriously hard to tune but the price was right i wanted to try them. I always start with a pressure ladder to see how they generally shoot and to find my max safe charge.
Wide and spread out..... very bad.
Next is same rifle with 180 hybrids and 162 ELDM.... bullets notoriously easy to tune....
Much more clumped together.... much better chance of finding an easy to shoot load.
If it doesn't start off fairly small I don't waste my time.
First example is nosler ABLR.... notoriously hard to tune but the price was right i wanted to try them. I always start with a pressure ladder to see how they generally shoot and to find my max safe charge.
Wide and spread out..... very bad.
Next is same rifle with 180 hybrids and 162 ELDM.... bullets notoriously easy to tune....
Much more clumped together.... much better chance of finding an easy to shoot load.
If it doesn't start off fairly small I don't waste my time.
Florida Wally
Gold $$ Contributor
It looks to me like you have it figured out well enough. Don’t get too far into the details for now, or you will end up overwhelmed. Shoot your early testing groups at 100 yds and avoid windy conditions. Keep records of each group average velocity, es and sd. You probably don’t want to focus on the chronograph numbers now, but as you progress out to longer distances, they will become more important. Also, note the temperature for each session. The more data you gather now will make it easier when making future decisions.
Shoot the groups as you note and let the barrel cool between each group to ensure consistent barrel temperature. Make sure to pay close attention to high pressure signs for each group so you don’t exceed unsafe pressures. I pay close attention to a heavier bolt lift, primer cratering, primer flattening, and smearing shiny marks on the case head.
As has been previously mentioned, keep your scope settings constant for all of your groups. From your proposed powder load testing groups, compare the groups and hopefully you will find two or three consecutive groups where the centroid (center) of the group impacts the target at the same or similar location on the vertical axis. Don’t worry too much about group size and shape just yet, you can tighten that up later with seating depth testing.
You might want to conduct this testing multiple times and look for repeatability to help verify the best charge window. Once you are done with the initial powder load testing, you will be able to focus in on a load.
The next step will be to select a charge or two in the middle of the charges where the group centroids had the least vertical dispersion. From there you can perform seating depth testing.
Post some targets and you will get some helpful feedback from the forum members. Be patient, don’t expect to shoot quarter minute groups after an only few testing sessions, and remember to have fun!
ABSOLUTELY.
Testing for long range loads, 100 yd groups are close to worthless, except to sort out some really bad loads.
The next most worthless thing (In terms of giving you really worthwhile LR information) is 3 shot groups.
(Spoken from half a century on the bench. My experience; expect others to exactly disagree with me).
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L.Sherm
Silver $$ Contributor
Forget about FPS flat spots, Forget about E.S as long as its below 30, charge weights in your application shout be .02 difference, I would watch Alex Wheelers methods on shoulder bump and how to find touch and start there with seating depth you could be skipping over a very good node starting at .020 off.
If 600 is your goal test atleast there with whatever you decide on for a load.
Test your seating depth .003 at a time you will be surprised at the difference especially at 600.
Lastly, trust your targets not numbers
If 600 is your goal test atleast there with whatever you decide on for a load.
Test your seating depth .003 at a time you will be surprised at the difference especially at 600.
Lastly, trust your targets not numbers
.001 neck tension, Lee collet neck die with custom mandrel. .30-06 180 SST
I disagree with this statement, I have had very good results at 600 yards tuning at 100 yards. If 100 yards is all you have to tune at, get those groups as small as you can get them and the ES as low as you can get them, this is what I have experienced if it groups at 100 it will group at 600 if you do your part driving the gun.
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The more spikes closer is effected by the wind later. I always have time to watch the wind at longer ranges as well as shorter. The animal doesn’t know who’s watching them.
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I want to thank everyone for taking the time to help get me and my thoughts lined out. I appreciate everyone's input. I've decided a plan of attack. Here's what it's going to look like.....
* 1st, I'm going to load up a few sighters/foulers and get it close
* 2nd, I'll load 4 rounds of each charge weight in increments of .3 ranging from 40.5 - 43.5. (more on the charge weights at the end of the post)
* 3rd, I'll shoot one of each charge weight at different points of aim in a straight line looking for pressure and observing POI. If pressure is found, back off a little and test groups up to that point.
* 4th, shoot the remaining three of each charge weight (up to pressure limit) at different points of aim, looking for POI and reading the groups. All groups shot over the chronograph recording the data.
With that info, I should be able to pick a charge weight. That'll wrap up one range session. The next time out, it'll be seating depth testing. On the third trip, it should be fine tuning of the charge weight. Sounds about right?
* On the charge weight, Hornady says a max charge of 41.2 (w/ a 140 BTHP). Berger says a max of 42.1 (w/ a 140 Elite Hunter) and Hodgdon says 43.5 (140 ELD-X). The reason I decided to start loading at 40.5 is, if I find pressure in the middle of that (somewhere in the low to mid 42's), it gives me 7 - 8 groups. If I don't find it until 43, that's 10 groups. If I find it where Hornady says, that'll make for a short range day. Lol. Two of them say starting load at 38 and one says 39.2. I don't have any idea where max would be with them ranging 2.3 grains as max. Being that I'm shooting 140 gr. BTHP's and my Accurate powder is Pre Hodgdon, should I load a few lower than 40.5?
* 1st, I'm going to load up a few sighters/foulers and get it close
* 2nd, I'll load 4 rounds of each charge weight in increments of .3 ranging from 40.5 - 43.5. (more on the charge weights at the end of the post)
* 3rd, I'll shoot one of each charge weight at different points of aim in a straight line looking for pressure and observing POI. If pressure is found, back off a little and test groups up to that point.
* 4th, shoot the remaining three of each charge weight (up to pressure limit) at different points of aim, looking for POI and reading the groups. All groups shot over the chronograph recording the data.
With that info, I should be able to pick a charge weight. That'll wrap up one range session. The next time out, it'll be seating depth testing. On the third trip, it should be fine tuning of the charge weight. Sounds about right?
* On the charge weight, Hornady says a max charge of 41.2 (w/ a 140 BTHP). Berger says a max of 42.1 (w/ a 140 Elite Hunter) and Hodgdon says 43.5 (140 ELD-X). The reason I decided to start loading at 40.5 is, if I find pressure in the middle of that (somewhere in the low to mid 42's), it gives me 7 - 8 groups. If I don't find it until 43, that's 10 groups. If I find it where Hornady says, that'll make for a short range day. Lol. Two of them say starting load at 38 and one says 39.2. I don't have any idea where max would be with them ranging 2.3 grains as max. Being that I'm shooting 140 gr. BTHP's and my Accurate powder is Pre Hodgdon, should I load a few lower than 40.5?
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Florida Wally
Gold $$ Contributor
Sounds like you have a good, well thought out plan. You should be okay with 40.5 to begin with. You could load your sighters at the lower charge to see what the pressure signs look like on the low end. I tend to not use up components testing the extreme low end.
Will do. I hope to get them all loaded up tonight. If everything plays out right, I may have some pictures of the results tomorrow evening.
nwmnbowhunter
Silver $$ Contributor
Here is my previous post continued...
-40 did in fact shoot the smallest, but again impact are all pretty much same spot in relation to dot. This is a hunting rifle.... I'm very satisfied with the result.
White dot is 0.75. I use center dot scopes and I like uncluttered targets....I can't shoot targets with grid marks all over them as well as a plain dot.
Next is a pretty typical average hunting rifle.
Groups for me usually show wide and then tall and then wide again as you change charge or seating depth.
I like seeing triangles.
So in this rifle -60 to -80 appears to be where it will shoot the smallest....
-40 did in fact shoot the smallest, but again impact are all pretty much same spot in relation to dot. This is a hunting rifle.... I'm very satisfied with the result.
White dot is 0.75. I use center dot scopes and I like uncluttered targets....I can't shoot targets with grid marks all over them as well as a plain dot.
Next is a pretty typical average hunting rifle.
Groups for me usually show wide and then tall and then wide again as you change charge or seating depth.
I like seeing triangles.
So in this rifle -60 to -80 appears to be where it will shoot the smallest....
How about this… try not to buy to many components of various brands or types. I found out after many years not to go crazy buying everything other people told me they buy or “it’s an experiment” you just have to try it. That’s partly true but not to go beyond what “your rifle likes” or does the job, or equipment that loads it.
Lee collet neck sizer/Redding body die and a competition seater. I bought a forester comp seater used off ebay. No need to check concentricity, it’s fine. A Frankford arsenal coax press verses a forester coax is fine. I don’t size with the Frankford press, the shell holder is crap just seat. I bought a used Rcbs RC that is really nice to size.
Powder. I had a great load with 1 powder.. after careful research and switched for better temp stability.. even though the first one is just as good, and the second one is on hold for distribution. It’s easy to get caught up with try this it works well in my rifle. Sometimes it works well across the board but not usually. Bedding is always a way to say ,it’s not that l did bed it.
Lee collet neck sizer/Redding body die and a competition seater. I bought a forester comp seater used off ebay. No need to check concentricity, it’s fine. A Frankford arsenal coax press verses a forester coax is fine. I don’t size with the Frankford press, the shell holder is crap just seat. I bought a used Rcbs RC that is really nice to size.
Powder. I had a great load with 1 powder.. after careful research and switched for better temp stability.. even though the first one is just as good, and the second one is on hold for distribution. It’s easy to get caught up with try this it works well in my rifle. Sometimes it works well across the board but not usually. Bedding is always a way to say ,it’s not that l did bed it.
I agree. That's the reason I don't work on my Chevelle any longer. It was turning into work and frustration.
I said "suffering" in the title, but it's far from it. There's no frustration with load development or reloading. I love it. I was just asking this to get all of the info bouncing around in my head straightened out and get a plan together.
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women are multitaskers, men? Some are, I ain't, well it depends on what it is. Our lives are to easy. No kids, no mortage, no to do lists, etc.... I wouldn't bounce too much around in your head. That isn't good, to the point of buying and doing too much too soon. Don't waste components, time and money. Go for bedding the rifle/free float the barrel, a Body die, Lee collet die, and a used competition seater from Forster off ebay, and a VLD stem and form it to a good vld bullet. I use light valve lapping compound chucked in a drill. Take your time, and gradually work it. Their stems aren't hardened.
I suspect you don't need to over think it for the creedmoor. Maybe I just got lucky or maybe its the Bartlein barrel. I load 6 creed but I bet the same principle applies to 6.5. H4350, berger hybrid, smk, or eldm, back it up .010 to .020 off jam, send it. I also use once fired Hornady brass with good results. About a billion people have already done the load development for 6.5 creed, just copy them and you will be in the ball park.
I have done the full load development with 3 to 5 shot groups for powder and seating depth when I started loading. Now I am trying larger samples and bigger changes per Hornady. So far, their observations have been true for me. Many times in the past I thought I was on to something with a certain charge or seating depth. I would then load up 10 or more to confirm and it would all fall apart. Now shooting 25 shot samples with larger changes I find for example .5 gr in a 223 makes very little difference.
I have done the full load development with 3 to 5 shot groups for powder and seating depth when I started loading. Now I am trying larger samples and bigger changes per Hornady. So far, their observations have been true for me. Many times in the past I thought I was on to something with a certain charge or seating depth. I would then load up 10 or more to confirm and it would all fall apart. Now shooting 25 shot samples with larger changes I find for example .5 gr in a 223 makes very little difference.
Done, done, done & have the VLD's. I don't have a micrometer seater yet though.
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