New stock duplicator arrived!

[hoz53]

I'm already thinking of modifications and a complete redesign. I think the router/guide carriage could be made to move up and down while maintaining a vertically constant attitude. I'd have to add another set of guide bars with bigger bases and towers and another cross bar set up. The weight would double. I think you're right, Dusty. You need strong, sturdy steel to get rigidity, and that gets heavy, Wished I hadn't missed that auction!

better get the first 100 out before you start messing around with rebuilding the machine
lessee 400 hours divided 12 hours per day = 33 roughly so just over a month you will have em done

 

[Intheshop]

There is a fella that is in my town that has what i am told a 30K priced machine.. but getting him to duplicate a stock is a nightmare!

Probably tired of cleaning up the mess with a broom N shovel,haha.

 

[ebb]

That's strange there is one just like that one in my shop. If I can get a day off I may just make a stock.

 

[epmn]

I put one of those in a couple of years ago. These days it get used mostly for making modified adjustable combs or soft combs for shotguns. I ended up replacing the rotary with fixtures I made using spline shafts and couplers. I know that each of the parts is being rotated the same amount when I pull the spline out of the coupler and rotate it to a new position.

 

[Machinist John]

Duplicators. Interesting machines. Mine below:

Cutters, tracers and layout tools below. Note the Teflon tipped tracers. Several tracer sizes for each diameter cutter: First for roughing is 1/8" larger in diameter than the cutter. Then I switch to a cutter 1/16" larger, then to the final size for the finishing cuts.

Different shaped cutters for the different areas of the stock. The big two flute HSS cutters are for roughing.

Roughing below. The machine has big 220 volt high torque motors and candle handle the deep cuts. The cutter is 3/4" diameter.

Patterns:

I have a long article with photos on how I set up the duplicator. It you gents are interested I will post it here.

 

[butchlambert]

Man,
Do you have a beaver on the spindle?

 

[shortgrass]

Please John, post your article or a link to it. Be interesting to see something besides 'barrel work' on 'new lathes'.

 

[Machinist John]

Man,
Do you have a beaver on the spindle?

Butch, you have seen all this before over on the AR site, I use Woodhunter there as a handle.

That Beaver is a nasty guy:

4 big yellow teeth. He is a glutton.

His smaller tooth sibling does this:

 

[tobnpr]

I have a custom made, two-router Radarcarve that I had him build for me 6 years ago. Only one there is, far as I know.

Couple of things I'll pass along.

I use lasers for setup. Table MUST have NO twist- just like a lathe. "Level" is obviously the easiest way to do this.

Get some long, straight, 1/4" drill rod and chuck it into the router. Again, I use a laser to make sure it indicates perfectly perpendicular to the table, could be done with a square. EVERYTHING must be perfectly on centers, square and perpendicular. I'm no fan of the cheesy wood blocks holding the routers, one day if I can find time I'm going to mill some adjustable, aluminum holders for them. The problem is that you may find the welded tubes holding the router are not perfectly level to the axis of rotation. This is what the test with the 1/4" will show. If this is the case, as the bit travels vertically, it will move off the z axis at an angle. You're effed...

Keep in mind that with stocks, you're cutting from both top AND bottom - and they've got to meet in the middle (at the inletting). What's top/right side, becomes bottom/left side when you rotate 180 degrees.

The plates for headstock and tailstock are not rigid enough. When applying tension on the pattern and blank stocks, the p!ates will bend. Not cool- I reinforced mine so they are completely rigid.

The principles behind these are very simple- but it takes very little of an alignment being "off", to make firewood. Just check alignments and parallelism thoroughly first.
Oh yeah- be sure to adjust the bicycle chain gearing and the headstocks so they too are perfectly aligned with no backlash.

I made custom blocks for my headstock for quick installations of the pattern stock and blanks, but I use mine for semi-productio .

 

[joshb]

I have a custom made, two-router Radarcarve that I had him build for me 6 years ago. Only one there is, far as I know.

Couple of things I'll pass along.

I use lasers for setup. Table MUST have NO twist- just like a lathe. "Level" is obviously the easiest way to do this.

Get some long, straight, 1/4" drill rod and chuck it into the router. Again, I use a laser to make sure it indicates perfectly perpendicular to the table, could be done with a square. EVERYTHING must be perfectly on centers, square and perpendicular. I'm no fan of the cheesy wood blocks holding the routers, one day if I can find time I'm going to mill some adjustable, aluminum holders for them. The problem is that you may find the welded tubes holding the router are not perfectly level to the axis of rotation. This is what the test with the 1/4" will show. If this is the case, as the bit travels vertically, it will move off the z axis at an angle. You're effed...

Keep in mind that with stocks, you're cutting from both top AND bottom - and they've got to meet in the middle (at the inletting). What's top/right side, becomes bottom/left side when you rotate 180 degrees.

The plates for headstock and tailstock are not rigid enough. When applying tension on the pattern and blank stocks, the p!ates will bend. Not cool- I reinforced mine so they are completely rigid.

The principles behind these are very simple- but it takes very little of an alignment being "off", to make firewood. Just check alignments and parallelism thoroughly first.
Oh yeah- be sure to adjust the bicycle chain gearing and the headstocks so they too are perfectly aligned with no backlash.

I made custom blocks for my headstock for quick installations of the pattern stock and blanks, but I use mine for semi-productio .

Thank you for that very important info. I'll keep an eye on it. I had already judged that the headstock plates were too flimsy and I'm in the process of reinforcing them. Time will tell. Thanks again. Josh

 

[butchlambert]

Butch, you have seen all this before over on the AR site, I use Woodhunter there as a handle.

That Beaver is a nasty guy:

4 big yellow teeth. He is a glutton.

His smaller tooth sibling does this:

Got to rib you a little.

 

[Machinist John]

Got to rib you a little.

Grumpy geysers like us need the ribbing, keeps us in check.

 

[Intheshop]

Josh,you might enjoy this.....or not.

We have enough masons scaffold to pretty much cover any job encountered from a contractor standpoint.But that's outside.Snagged a "baker's scaffold" a few weeks ago....look m up.Anyway,it's being fitted for or as,a roll around spraybooth.Std 20x20 booth filters get "stuck" on a pce of concrete reinforcement mesh....which is hung on the front.2" stubs get welded,every other intersection,pointing out....which is what hangs the filters.It's a plenum design that can accommodate up,back,or down exhaust.

We're gonna use it on the loading dock.But,it'll work pretty much anywhere.The filter section is 40" tall,72" long....and height set so bttm of filters are waist high.Not counting fan unit....got about 300 in it.And it still knocks down for those few times a year something needs it as a scaffold?

 

[Machinist John]

Heavy is as heavy does.

My beast weighs about 2000 pounds. It is constructed of heavy structural steel. Very stable and extremely accurate.

Note the plywood I added to catch all the chips and keep them off the floor. Makes clean up real easy. Just 1/2" plywood painted white. The white paint really helps out on the light and makes it easy to see the cuts. I used semi gloss latex.

If I were using one of the light weight duplicators, I would bolt it to a big piece of 1/2" thick steel plate. Weight is your friend! Or, If I had the room, form up and pour a concrete base with rebar to reinforce. Maybe some steel pads placed in the concrete for bolting the duplicator to.


There is a lot of steel in this thing:

Chips. When duplicating a maple stock, I save the chips for use in my smoker. Ummm, maple flavored smoked salmon!

 

[Machinist John]

I hear you and I'm hopeful, but It looks dicey. The grip is the issue. If I put 1/2" of a 2 7/8" long 1/4" router bit into the router, I'm just hitting the depth I need. Here's a pic of that set up.
View attachment 1035165
I think I might be better served to do some of the inletting using my old methods before I put the stock in the duplicator.

You should come up with a way to rotate the router motor and tracer together. Then you could rotate for access into those problem grip areas and still use short shank router bits.

The Koenig, the Allen and the Green duplicators all have this feature. I will try to find a photo to post.

 

[Machinist John]

Here you go. The motor and the tracer holder are on a common axis and may be tilted in order to reach those close pistol grip areas. Much better than using a long shank bit. The overhung long shank bit is prone to breaking off and flying out of the machine. The last thing you want is a razor sharp cutter flying all over the shop at 20,000 RPM! Real scary, I have seen it happen.

 

[joshb]

Thanks John! I was so interested in your machine, I looked for one for sale on the Internet. Funny thing, I found yours! Are you still selling or are you another John that bought it from John? Pretty tempting. Too bad you're on the other side of the country.

 

[joshb]

Here you go. The motor and the tracer holder are on a common axis and may be tilted in order to reach those close pistol grip areas. Much better than using a long shank bit. The overhung long shank bit is prone to breaking off and flying out of the machine. The last thing you want is a razor sharp cutter flying all over the shop at 20,000 RPM! Real scary, I have seen it happen.

View attachment 1039134

I have a rough sketch of the modification I'm thinking of doing. Two bars are needed for it, just like the pic. I'd basically buy another rail system to do it. The main problem is that the router and guide pin swing in an arc around the main bar. My thought is to make it like a 3 point hitch on a tractor so the router and guide remain perpendicular to the stock.

 

[Machinist John]

Thanks John! I was so interested in your machine, I looked for one for sale on the Internet. Funny thing, I found yours! Are you still selling or are you another John that bought it from John? Pretty tempting. Too bad you're on the other side of the country.

I had thoughts of selling it to "thin the herd" and make more room in the shop.

Had lots of tire kickers but none serious. No one wants to spend the money for a production machine.

Meanwhile I decided to complete several rifles and stock jobs. I will put it back up for sale in a couple of years.

Biggest problem is it would be very expensive to ship. I have a gent in Tasmania of all places that really wants it.

A neat thing about this machine is the reversing mechanism. I can carve two stocks from one pattern. Or a right hand and a left hand stock from one pattern. Or two right hand stocks from the one pattern. Ideal for a production shop.

 

[joshb]

Ok! I guess I have 2 years to fill the piggy bank and find somebody with a truck! If you decide to sell sooner, let me know. josh