March 10-60 Vs NF Comp 15-55. Which do you prefer for F class and why.

[hogan]

To me, the NF Comp is the best glass available at any price for a scope intended for our sport. I also like that they are an American company and have a great warranty. Although, I think problems with them are extremely rare, I don't doubt that you could have a defect or issue with them, just as with any make, model or price scope or product in general.

I will also say that perceived differences in "cutting through" mirage is just that..perception. Just as turning the power down will make mirage less noticeable, it doesn't mean it's not there...just that you don't see it. I believe that the better glass simply sees mirage that lesser glass does not. JMHO.

Everyone has an opinion, but "best glass available intended for our sport"?

How can that even be quantified? Feelings, nothing more than feelings??? Where's the syrupy guitar. it's a nice song though, and this is a nice sentiment.
Okay by me. Like em the best, buy all you want... I owned 2 that cost over $3000 and they were mediocre in optical performance. I "judged" the Leupold mk4 4.5-14 50mm illum TMR to be a better scope because of its lighter weight; about half, and equal optica performance. After 5mos of owning the 8-32x NXS I felt lucky to sell for $1600. Quite a loss, but there were fewer fanboys in those days.

I think it is on my Cronus BTR thread that Rob-01 remarks how he "holds, doesn't dial" wind. He is a highly reputed ranked competitor and has sponsors. Holding for the wind, and shooting at only 1 distance, how can this be???

Why does March sell their high magnification scopes for less than their tactical offering? Like a $500 difference? The 8-32x NXS and 12-42 NXS aren't cheaper than the lower mag range NXS gear...


I didn't even see the part our guy says above that "I will also say that perceived differences in "cutting through" mirage is just that..perception. Just as turning the power down will make mirage less noticeable, it doesn't mean it's not there...just that you don't see it. I believe that the better glass simply sees mirage that lesser glass does not. JMHO."

Mirage is visible wind, according to Randolph Constantine. You want the rendition and clarity to see it, and you want to quantify it all along your bullet's path, don't you? G&G is certainly right about wanting to be able to guage the mirage and better optics enable that.


There is pleny of evidence on this thread that Beliefs are tenaciously held fast whether real or imagined. If you have plenty money, buy according to your "beliefs'. Yet the guy you were beating who went Cronus BTR and freed up $1500 for a new barrel and stock along with a great optic might just rip your score once he's all dialed in.

This is not religion, although to many here it is likely more important to them than. By the time you have your Beliefs replaced by Knowledge; you no longer need the religion... There is a reason March sells their high mag scopes for less than the tactical model. There is also a reason that Adjustable Objective parallax has wider margine for error. Feelings won't make your scores improve. If you can acquire better performing gear for significantly less, your inner conviction that you have improved your competitive prospects will enable better performance. Be all that you can be, the saying goes. Why not See All You Can See?

 

[swd]

Must be related to F Guffy....

 

[JimPag]

You sound like a salesman not a shooter, no offense intended..

Personally I feel the Golden Eagle is the value leader with optic/magnification.. I don't just take folk's word for it, so before this poor country boy slaps down $1.5k I will observe a bit..

I would love to see Alex test one, along with the salesman's scope..

I observe a lot of times when a record is set, that old NF BR scope sits on top of the rifle..

Trust but verify my friends..

Ray

A used car salesman at that. I'm still trying to figure out what guage means. Must be some new kind of English.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Hogan, I believe the difference in cost your seeing in the March scope is first focal plane vs second focal plane. In target shooting resolution is all that really matters, we are not birding or looking for elk. If you test in ideal conditions resolution is very easy to quantify. And yes the NF comp scope has the best resolution. I would be happy to test one of these Athlons in ideal conditions side by side with the others, as well as put it on a scope tester to verify poi holding. If they test well, it would be a feather in their cap for sure.

 

[DT]

Hogan, I believe the difference in cost your seeing in the March scope is first focal plane vs second focal plane. In target shooting resolution is all that really matters, we are not birding or looking for elk. If you test in ideal conditions resolution is very easy to quantify. And yes the NF comp scope has the best resolution. I would be happy to test one of these Athlons in ideal conditions side by side with the others, as well as put it on a scope tester to verify poi holding. If they test well, it would be a feather in their cap for sure.

There you go Hogan. Put up or shut up.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Everyone has an opinion, but "best glass available intended for our sport"?

How can that even be quantified? Feelings, nothing more than feelings??? Where's the syrupy guitar. it's a nice song though, and this is a nice sentiment.
Okay by me. Like em the best, buy all you want... I owned 2 that cost over $3000 and they were mediocre in optical performance. I "judged" the Leupold mk4 4.5-14 50mm illum TMR to be a better scope because of its lighter weight; about half, and equal optica performance. After 5mos of owning the 8-32x NXS I felt lucky to sell for $1600. Quite a loss, but there were fewer fanboys in those days.

I think it is on my Cronus BTR thread that Rob-01 remarks how he "holds, doesn't dial" wind. He is a highly reputed ranked competitor and has sponsors. Holding for the wind, and shooting at only 1 distance, how can this be???

Why does March sell their high magnification scopes for less than their tactical offering? Like a $500 difference? The 8-32x NXS and 12-42 NXS aren't cheaper than the lower mag range NXS gear...


I didn't even see the part our guy says above that "I will also say that perceived differences in "cutting through" mirage is just that..perception. Just as turning the power down will make mirage less noticeable, it doesn't mean it's not there...just that you don't see it. I believe that the better glass simply sees mirage that lesser glass does not. JMHO."

Mirage is visible wind, according to Randolph Constantine. You want the rendition and clarity to see it, and you want to quantify it all along your bullet's path, don't you? G&G is certainly right about wanting to be able to guage the mirage and better optics enable that.


There is pleny of evidence on this thread that Beliefs are tenaciously held fast whether real or imagined. If you have plenty money, buy according to your "beliefs'. Yet the guy you were beating who went Cronus BTR and freed up $1500 for a new barrel and stock along with a great optic might just rip your score once he's all dialed in.

This is not religion, although to many here it is likely more important to them than. By the time you have your Beliefs replaced by Knowledge; you no longer need the religion... There is a reason March sells their high mag scopes for less than the tactical model. There is also a reason that Adjustable Objective parallax has wider margine for error. Feelings won't make your scores improve. If you can acquire better performing gear for significantly less, your inner conviction that you have improved your competitive prospects will enable better performance. Be all that you can be, the saying goes. Why not See All You Can See?

hoganSite $$ Contributor
New
"I have posted several ad nauseum reviews of a couple of Athlon Optic scopes I own. I became a dealer with them...."

I quantified my post with the first two words of my post..."To me,".
To clarify, my post was me giving my view of the subject.
I don't need you or anyone else to tell me what to think...and I don't sell cheap knockoff optics, and claim them to be the equal or better than Nightforce.

I'm entitled to my opinion and I gave it.
There is no requirement for you to agree with it but you should take Alex up on his offer to test your scope. It would be a boon or bust for your "bargain" scope line.

 

[hogan]

What is a "scope tester", Alex? Please elaborate. Perhaps NF BR scopes are "the best resolution". I dunno, is the "comp" scope different from the benchrest model? Does an A/O parallax control travel/orbit in 100% perfect collimation. Seems if they did, they would be more expensive to make than the side-focus parallax. Yet, side-focus has been/was probably a large part of the $1000 cost to upgrade from BR to NXS.

Gunsmith Ezell says $2029 (sug'd retail) Cronus BTR is a "cheap knockoff optic"... Wow, made my point on value. If $2000/$1800 is "cheap"; what's it cost to buy-in the quality league? Money isn't the common denominator of Quality and Performance. Not anymore...

"Scope tester", "high tech CNC" ... These are buzz words that show user has no knowledge of the technology. What machine can test an optic for you? An optical collimator tests lens and lens group alignment. Scope Tester just sounds ambiguous. I have owned CNC machinery. Essentially a robotic operation that has nothing to do with "better quality" of machine shop capacity. We're not talking night vision tubes here. CNC machines produce more cheaply not "better".


Would be interesting to consider the vision capabilities and average ages of users. Best vision is going to get most out of an optic. In turn, best optic will make the most of your vision... How can you "know" without testing for yourself? Is there a reason to choose "if It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It" in regard to accepting limitations on your abilities? Doesn't make sense to me.

Is a premium tactical scope going to out perform a premium high magnification scope? If you have to dial magnification way back to get a usable sight picture, under many conditions, where are the gains? $6K maybe not to have to deal with issues once magnification goes over say 30x? Is 45x enough? 55x? If you have to throttle back from max mag, don't that prove lower quality? if you get 27-30x from the premium tactical, and can rely on the max mag in more conditions, which is better?

Relying on belief rather than continual pursuit of knowledge is the pathway to mediocrity.

 

[hogan]

I will leave you guys to it. Not my intent to raise the hackles. I wish you all the best shooting conditions and precision performance.

It is very difficult to quantify all the elements that contribute to precision shooting. Difficult even just to identify and isolate them. Optics are uniquely individually applied. There will always be discussion. No more elaboration from me on this thread. Best to you all!

 

[Ned Ludd]

What is a "scope tester", Alex? Please elaborate. Perhaps NF BR scopes are "the best resolution". I dunno, is the "comp" scope different from the benchrest model? Does an A/O parallax control travel/orbit in 100% perfect collimation. Seems if they did, they would be more expensive to make than the side-focus parallax. Yet, side-focus has been/was probably a large part of the $1000 cost to upgrade from BR to NXS.

Gunsmith Ezell says $2029 (sug'd retail) Cronus BTR is a "cheap knockoff optic"... Wow, made my point on value. If $2000/$1800 is "cheap"; what's it cost to buy-in the quality league? Money isn't the common denominator of Quality and Performance. Not anymore...

"Scope tester", "high tech CNC" ... These are buzz words that show user has no knowledge of the technology. What machine can test an optic for you? An optical collimator tests lens and lens group alignment. Scope Tester just sounds ambiguous. I have owned CNC machinery. Essentially a robotic operation that has nothing to do with "better quality" of machine shop capacity. We're not talking night vision tubes here. CNC machines produce more cheaply not "better".


Would be interesting to consider the vision capabilities and average ages of users. Best vision is going to get most out of an optic. In turn, best optic will make the most of your vision... How can you "know" without testing for yourself? Is there a reason to choose "if It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It" in regard to accepting limitations on your abilities? Doesn't make sense to me.

Is a premium tactical scope going to out perform a premium high magnification scope? If you have to dial magnification way back to get a usable sight picture, under many conditions, where are the gains? $6K maybe not to have to deal with issues once magnification goes over say 30x? Is 45x enough? 55x? If you have to throttle back from max mag, don't that prove lower quality? if you get 27-30x from the premium tactical, and can rely on the max mag in more conditions, which is better?

Relying on belief rather than continual pursuit of knowledge is the pathway to mediocrity.

Here is the above summed up: apparently the scope won't be tested alongside the NF, Vortex, March, Sightron. That's what's known as a "poor business decision". You're missing out on an opportunity to promote your product. Frankly, all the scope would really have to do compared to the others would be to perform in a fairly mediocre fashion. With the price difference, even mediocre performance would likely net you quite a few new customers.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What is a "scope tester", Alex? Please elaborate. Perhaps NF BR scopes are "the best resolution". I dunno, is the "comp" scope different from the benchrest model? Does an A/O parallax control travel/orbit in 100% perfect collimation. Seems if they did, they would be more expensive to make than the side-focus parallax. Yet, side-focus has been/was probably a large part of the $1000 cost to upgrade from BR to NXS.

Gunsmith Ezell says $2029 (sug'd retail) Cronus BTR is a "cheap knockoff optic"... Wow, made my point on value. If $2000/$1800 is "cheap"; what's it cost to buy-in the quality league? Money isn't the common denominator of Quality and Performance. Not anymore...

"If you have plenty money, buy according to your "beliefs'. Yet the guy you were beating who went Cronus BTR and freed up $1500 for a new barrel and stock ...."

A NF 12-42 BR is about $1400, a 15-15 Comp about $2400, a 8-32 NXS about $2100. I don't care what suggested retail is for a product. What matters are real world prices. The prices I just gave are real world prices. So, which one of your scopes frees up $1500 for me to spend on barrels and stocks?

Your posts are making you appear deceptive and less than knowledgeable of this subject. I hope neither is the case.

 

[Raythemanroe]

That there hurt my mind to read.. I hope we can cope with our useless target scopes while those Tactical Atholes dominate everything..

I hope everyone took a shower after that

Ray

 

[swd]

What is a "scope tester", Alex? Please elaborate.
"Scope tester", "high tech CNC" ... These are buzz words that show user has no knowledge of the technology. What machine can test an optic for you? An optical collimator tests lens and lens group alignment. Scope Tester just sounds ambiguous. I have owned CNC machinery. Essentially a robotic operation that has nothing to do with "better quality" of machine shop capacity. We're not talking night vision tubes here. CNC machines produce more cheaply not "better".

One of the best accuracy gunsmiths in the country just made you one hell of an offer. Your either a lousy salesman or a troll. At this point I'm suspecting the latter.

 

[Shiraz]

In case anyone is wondering what a collimator is.

 

[rifleman700]

I will leave you guys to it. Not my intent to raise the hackles. I wish you all the best shooting conditions and precision performance.

It is very difficult to quantify all the elements that contribute to precision shooting. Difficult even just to identify and isolate them. Optics are uniquely individually applied. There will always be discussion. No more elaboration from me on this thread. Best to you all!

You were politely asked to submit a scope for testing and you are walking away??? No faith in your product?? I take that back, you are running away.

 

[Dos XX]

I swear you F Open guys can make weight with anything!

In case anyone is wondering what a collimator is.

 

[dkhunt14]

[QUOTE="hogan, post: 36973612,




Is a premium tactical scope going to out perform a premium high magnification scope? If you have to dial magnification way back to get a usable sight picture, under many conditions, where are the gains? $6K maybe not to have to deal with issues once magnification goes over say 30x? Is 45x enough? 55x? If you have to throttle back from max mag, don't that prove lower quality? if you get 27-30x from the premium tactical, and can rely on the max mag in more conditions, which is better?
.[/QUOTE]
Mirage makes the target move at distance. The more mirage the more it moves. The more power the more it moves. It makes the target appear where it is not. Unless you have a heavy gun that tracks dead nuts the mirage can kill a group. When boiling I have seen the 7 inch bull not stay in the cross hair. It moves every which way but loose. Usually turning down power helps to keep it from moving. It is not about seeing the target. It is pretty obvious you have never much distance target.

I believe Alex is making a bracket to hold a frozen scope and also mount another scope. That way you can see if the unfrozen scope moves or comes back to zero when moving it around. Hopefully he will tell you. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

[QUOTE="hogan, post: 36973612,




Is a premium tactical scope going to out perform a premium high magnification scope? If you have to dial magnification way back to get a usable sight picture, under many conditions, where are the gains? $6K maybe not to have to deal with issues once magnification goes over say 30x? Is 45x enough? 55x? If you have to throttle back from max mag, don't that prove lower quality? if you get 27-30x from the premium tactical, and can rely on the max mag in more conditions, which is better?
.

Mirage makes the target move at distance. The more mirage the more it moves. The more power the more it moves. It makes the target appear where it is not. Unless you have a heavy gun that tracks dead nuts the mirage can kill a group. When boiling I have seen the 7 inch bull not stay in the cross hair. It moves every which way but loose. Usually turning down power helps to keep it from moving. It is not about seeing the target. It is pretty obvious you have never much distance target.

I believe Alex is making a bracket to hold a frozen scope and also mount another scope. That way you can see if the unfrozen scope moves or comes back to zero when moving it around. Hopefully he will tell you. Matt[/QUOTE]
My first scope was a Bosh & Lomb. It didn't have any windage adjustment . Many of BR shooter have the scope frozen Sightron made a scope that had a nylon locking arrangement on the adjustment . So it is nothing new . My nightforce walks the square ever time . I think I'm missing something . Larry

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The scope tester consists of a single mount which 2 scopes can be mounted on. The control scope is a frozen Leupold 36x. The crosshairs of both scopes are aimed at the same point on a piece of 1/4" grid paper. After a shot is fired, the rifle is adjusted so the crosshair on the frozen scope aligns with the original aim point again. The scope being tested will also line up with that point again if it held its zero. If it does not then that scope did not hold its zero and is of no use to a serious competitor. Its should be obvious, that if there is mirage present the test should not be performed at that time. The box test is a totally different test and valid in its own right. The above method of testing a scope against a known good one has been done for many years in the short range crowd. Hood Products at one point sold a mount for this purpose. I wish someone with a cnc shop would start selling them again. I think it something every serious competitor would want to own.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/11487/building-benchrest-rifle-164459?page=14

 

[bpmoss1]

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/11487/building-benchrest-rifle-164459?page=14

I think Speedy made adjustable mounts for frozen Lupys to eliminate the possibility of internal shift of ret. Seen them on a number of short range br rifles, but never a long range rifle.