Pardon my ignorance regarding scope checkers, does one need a " frozen scope" with a scope checker to check your scope that is in question ,and if so, where do you get one?
March vs. Nightforce Repeatability and Reliability
- Thread starter Killick
- Start date
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Need, no, but its nice. Post a want ad...
Which scope checker do you use? Also, how do you know if the scope checker is accurate?
Ben
Ben
Jet
Gold $$ Contributor
Ben
I use the one Mike Ezell, http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/ that is similar to the original Hood Scope Checker. I have two frozen scopes that I test side by side to verify everything is mounted up solid.
Rich
I use the one Mike Ezell, http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/ that is similar to the original Hood Scope Checker. I have two frozen scopes that I test side by side to verify everything is mounted up solid.
Rich
Interesting comments about scopes. I bought a number of Leupolds through the years in a variety of models and eventually all have to be sent back for repair. I mentioned in a defunct BBs that I was having issues and got roasted and condemned for being an idiot until a big sporting goods store in Montana mentioned the most scopes being returned for warranty were Leupold and then the tone changed.
I have owned five March 10 x 60's and several NF Comp's. All have failed and have to be replaced at one point of the other. Several GE failed at the CDN Nationals this year yet when this was reported the reaction was disbelief and derision on this board. The only brand from my experience not to have a major failure is the Sightron.
The most common failure mode other than turret/reticle failures I have seen is the group size simply grows larger and larger. This is common in all the brands I have owned and all models so I believe this is due to accumulated wear from use. This may be the cause of the POA shift experienced by owners of the NF. However, I have never been able to get a scope company engineer explain to me why it happens and I have talked to most in the big companies. I had a Leupold hunting rifle scope coin slot deform simply from the pressure of the coin I was turning the adjustment with it was that soft.
The last March I sent back to Japan with photos and explanation of what was happening was returned as being taken apart and nothing broken found (I had told them there was nothing broken). They did send me the picture of the scope taken completely apart. However, they explained they although they couldn't find anything wrong they replaced the entire inside moving parts! When I got the scope back it went back to shooting tight groups. Same ammo, barrel etc.
So now I rotate my scopes after a few years and sell them off as it appears that scopes are as consumable as barrels. So many shots and they wear out.
I have owned five March 10 x 60's and several NF Comp's. All have failed and have to be replaced at one point of the other. Several GE failed at the CDN Nationals this year yet when this was reported the reaction was disbelief and derision on this board. The only brand from my experience not to have a major failure is the Sightron.
The most common failure mode other than turret/reticle failures I have seen is the group size simply grows larger and larger. This is common in all the brands I have owned and all models so I believe this is due to accumulated wear from use. This may be the cause of the POA shift experienced by owners of the NF. However, I have never been able to get a scope company engineer explain to me why it happens and I have talked to most in the big companies. I had a Leupold hunting rifle scope coin slot deform simply from the pressure of the coin I was turning the adjustment with it was that soft.
The last March I sent back to Japan with photos and explanation of what was happening was returned as being taken apart and nothing broken found (I had told them there was nothing broken). They did send me the picture of the scope taken completely apart. However, they explained they although they couldn't find anything wrong they replaced the entire inside moving parts! When I got the scope back it went back to shooting tight groups. Same ammo, barrel etc.
So now I rotate my scopes after a few years and sell them off as it appears that scopes are as consumable as barrels. So many shots and they wear out.
I have two Sightrons III 10-50x60. Both suffer from Leupold jump. This may be because the turrets were changed from mil to moa.
5 March 10-60's and all 5 failed!! I FIND THAT HARD TO BELIEVE.
Last edited:
All I can say is after testing a pile of scopes I am AMAZED at the failure rate. You think its hard finding a hummer barrel? Try finding a hummer scope... I will never be without a scope checker. EDIT: I guess I am without one... @tom is leasing it, hourly
Alex, you hit the nail on the head, maybe it is the scope making the barrel look bad........ Jim
Yes it is, they maybe a little dark for some, including me. but they shot very small and so did the NF BR. and NXS. I did have one NXS failure on a used one but it was repaired. ... Jim
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
CDN Nationals? How do you verify scopes in wind? Well, I guess my GE failed me at IBS Nationals in the wind.. I think every manufacturer had a DQ, they were all wind sensitive I guess..They must be wind sensitive?
I think from following these threads they all have failures (I tend to believe tested results more so) and some more then others.. I like to feel those that everything fails and needs servicing are in the camp of probability as those that nothing fails in my opinion.. I do my own research without bias and verify through my own testing..
Sightron should build a 10-50x50 with ED glass and lighter than the SIII 10-50x60.. I like the feel of the turrets, not to stiff where you are torquing the gun but positive enough..
Ray
JimPag
Actually you are somewhat correct. I bought 5 March's and sold 1 before I used it. I should have read and corrected the statement before sending it, sorry.
However, this brings up a discussion of what is a failure. In the GE's in Ottawa one of the scopes reticles simply seized and fell apart so it was easy to define a failure. The others had tracking issues from undefined reasons yet had no parts rattling around. I know of several March's over the years that the turret assemblies also fell apart so this isn't uncommon across brands. Last year I witnessed a high-end Sightron do the same but that scope had been smashed by the airlines so there was a reason for the failure.
In my cases though, the scopes continued to function and would pass a square target test where you would turn the scopes turrets around a box and shoot a square pattern. In all cases, the scopes continued to function properly. However, the groups sizes started to grow and continued to get worse. I could also not be confident where the center of the group would be.
I used a standard very accurate load to test before and after the rebuild and the same thing happened every time. Using the questionable scope, the group would be large. I would change the scope and install another and the group sizes would go back to normal. If I torqued and changed the rings on the questionable scope the group size remained huge so it wasn't a ring issue. Then I sent the scope in for repair and the group size returned to normal upon return. Again, I have witnessed this in Leupold hunting scopes so this is not unique to the March brand.
Years ago I decided I didn't really need 3 vaults full of rifles all with brand new scopes mounted on them and sold most of them off. Heresy I know so don't flame me!! The result was I used several rifle/scope combos far more and this is where I started to pickup on the issues as I noticed really accurate rifles and loads begin to loose accuracy. For some reason, which I forgot, I changed scopes and then noticed that after the change the rifles returned to the "normal" accuracy. So I began to test and found this issue.
I have asked several scope design engineers about this finding and asked what is happening and how long should a scope last? I receive no answers.
So again I make the comment. It appears that that scopes have a limited lifespan and they need to be viewed somewhat like a barrel. Shoot so many rounds through them and turn them over.
Actually you are somewhat correct. I bought 5 March's and sold 1 before I used it. I should have read and corrected the statement before sending it, sorry.
However, this brings up a discussion of what is a failure. In the GE's in Ottawa one of the scopes reticles simply seized and fell apart so it was easy to define a failure. The others had tracking issues from undefined reasons yet had no parts rattling around. I know of several March's over the years that the turret assemblies also fell apart so this isn't uncommon across brands. Last year I witnessed a high-end Sightron do the same but that scope had been smashed by the airlines so there was a reason for the failure.
In my cases though, the scopes continued to function and would pass a square target test where you would turn the scopes turrets around a box and shoot a square pattern. In all cases, the scopes continued to function properly. However, the groups sizes started to grow and continued to get worse. I could also not be confident where the center of the group would be.
I used a standard very accurate load to test before and after the rebuild and the same thing happened every time. Using the questionable scope, the group would be large. I would change the scope and install another and the group sizes would go back to normal. If I torqued and changed the rings on the questionable scope the group size remained huge so it wasn't a ring issue. Then I sent the scope in for repair and the group size returned to normal upon return. Again, I have witnessed this in Leupold hunting scopes so this is not unique to the March brand.
Years ago I decided I didn't really need 3 vaults full of rifles all with brand new scopes mounted on them and sold most of them off. Heresy I know so don't flame me!! The result was I used several rifle/scope combos far more and this is where I started to pickup on the issues as I noticed really accurate rifles and loads begin to loose accuracy. For some reason, which I forgot, I changed scopes and then noticed that after the change the rifles returned to the "normal" accuracy. So I began to test and found this issue.
I have asked several scope design engineers about this finding and asked what is happening and how long should a scope last? I receive no answers.
So again I make the comment. It appears that that scopes have a limited lifespan and they need to be viewed somewhat like a barrel. Shoot so many rounds through them and turn them over.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
He should get a women. Lol. Matt
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
I have the same suspicion, which is why I intend to regularly test my scopes over the next couple years.
If you had 4 March's fail Steve, this is very uncommon. I not saying that they don't fail, but it's among the most reliable scopes as far as BR goes. Leups on the other hand, well lets just say that I've see 2 more this year fail on people that I shoot against which makes it 10 that I've see fail since I first started shooting in 2013. I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for a Leup Comp scope. I've have been told by a dozen people that I shoot against that their 15-55 NF comps have given up on them. One of the guy's had to send his back twice within 3 seasons. The only scope that I've never heard anyone bad mouth has been the Valdada 36. I've owned 3 of them, still have one left and I think they are fantastic scopes. I'm sorry you had such bad luck with your Marches. I have 5 left and I haven't had a lick of trouble with any of them.
Hi Jim
Define fail? None of mine broke a part or had a turret/erector seize. However, everyone had groups that increased. I suspect that there a lot more of these scopes doing the same thing but the owners simply don't know what has happened or haven't shot them enough to make it happen. I believe that is a design and manufacturing issue common to all brands.
Define fail? None of mine broke a part or had a turret/erector seize. However, everyone had groups that increased. I suspect that there a lot more of these scopes doing the same thing but the owners simply don't know what has happened or haven't shot them enough to make it happen. I believe that is a design and manufacturing issue common to all brands.
Very interesting (and worrying)! I wonder if this is a side-effect of manufacturers chasing the combination of ever lower weight allied to ever larger adjustment ranges. The latter obviously involves a much larger amount of internal movement travel of the erector group. It seems like only yesterday that many competition orientated scopes had elevation adjustment ranges of 35-50 MOA depending on their magnification. (I still have two Burris Black Diamond 30mm tube target scopes that I bought in my early F-Class days, so not that long ago, a 6-24X50 whose range is I think 50-MOA, certainly no more than 55; and its more powerful otherwise identical 8-32X50 stablemate with a very restricted range of 30 odd MOA. Good scopes, shame about the tiny F-Class unfriendly turrets.)
Well unless u have a scope checker your just assuming that there is something wrong with any of your scopes. Getting bigger groups doesn't mean squat is wrong with the scope. How can u actually post this kind of absurd assumption? Earlier this year my dedicated 200 & 300 yard rifle (30x46) just didn't shoot like it did last season. 2 month's ago I ran out of a certain lot of N133 that I used. I tried 4 more different lots of the same, groups were terrible. For 2 weeks I tried different weights of bullets from 108's to 120's. Same thing groups kept getting bigger, changed scopes, same, same. Finally after the 1st shot of a new group, chambered a new round and the firing pin wouldn't stay cocked. Took it down my cellar and for some reason I grabbed the barrel in front of the end of the stock and lifted up on it and boom, the damn barreled action popped right out of the stock. It's a Scoville stock and it was just glued in. Whoever glued it in used Marine Tex from what my smith Sid Goodling told me and it just didn't hold. Sid said that he felt there was too little support on the back of the action, so he is going to add 2 pillars and then glue it. My point is my groups were getting bigger and it wasn't the scope. I could of blamed the scope, but in the end the scope had nothing to do with it.
Last edited:
Jim I understand your comments and also have experienced the kind of issues that you describe. When I find those issues I don`t subscribe those to the scope but I make my own bullets so I do a huge amount of testing and do keep superior `standard`match loads for testing purposes. I have got to the point now when I have an issue I check the basics on the range and then change the scope. In all most all cases the accuracy issues go away. Not always but mostly they do.
The only other hidden issue I have ran across that causes severe accuracy issues which are really hard to diagnose is having the front ringmount or rail screw touch the thread on the barrel shank. Wow, does that cause issues!!
Again Jim your suggestion is the kind of comments I received when I asked the question about Leupold hunting scope failure issues years ago. The first inference was I didn`t know what I was doing, couldn`t shoot or don`t test enough.
When you invest the kind of money into the equipment we do then there is an emotional buyin that goes along with the purchase. I bought a $3000 - 4000 scope therefore since I am not an idiot then they must be perfect and something else is the issue.
All I am saying is that there are issues with these scopes and their construction.
The only other hidden issue I have ran across that causes severe accuracy issues which are really hard to diagnose is having the front ringmount or rail screw touch the thread on the barrel shank. Wow, does that cause issues!!
Again Jim your suggestion is the kind of comments I received when I asked the question about Leupold hunting scope failure issues years ago. The first inference was I didn`t know what I was doing, couldn`t shoot or don`t test enough.
When you invest the kind of money into the equipment we do then there is an emotional buyin that goes along with the purchase. I bought a $3000 - 4000 scope therefore since I am not an idiot then they must be perfect and something else is the issue.
All I am saying is that there are issues with these scopes and their construction.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.