March 10-60 Vs NF Comp 15-55. Which do you prefer for F class and why.

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To me, the NF Comp is the best glass available at any price for a scope intended for our sport. I also like that they are an American company and have a great warranty. Although, I think problems with them are extremely rare, I don't doubt that you could have a defect or issue with them, just as with any make, model or price scope or product in general.

I will also say that perceived differences in "cutting through" mirage is just that..perception. Just as turning the power down will make mirage less noticeable, it doesn't mean it's not there...just that you don't see it. I believe that the better glass simply sees mirage that lesser glass does not. JMHO.

 

[JRS]

The factory heaadquarters is in the U.S. Unless Ray Dennis has changed something very recently, Nightforce is/was an Australian company. The tubes and turrets are made here, along with the assembly of the scopes. Many of the parts are sourced from other countries, to include the glass, which comes from Europe, Japan and even China.

 

[dkhunt14]

The factory heaadquarters is in the U.S. Unless Ray Dennis has changed something very recently, Nightforce is/was an Australian company. The tubes and turrets are made here, along with the assembly of the scopes. Many of the parts are sourced from other countries, to include the glass, which comes from Europe, Japan and even China.

Almost all scope companies buy from glass companies. Most are German or Japanese glass. Matt

 

[JRS]

Almost all scope companies buy from glass companies. Most are German or Japanese glass. Matt

Of course most buy their glass from the glass makers, to include Chinese made glass. S&B being the lone ranger McMillan used to assemble scopes here in the U.S.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

One area we as long range shooters are miles behind short range Benchrest shooters is scope evaluation. I am just diving into it my self, but in short range they have tested scopes for years. Opinions are just that. If I want meaningful answers on scopes I want to ask guys who have tested them. But, for some reason those guys dont talk publicly about it. Either to keep the advantage or because most likely they will get jumped on by somebody.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The factory heaadquarters is in the U.S. Unless Ray Dennis has changed something very recently, Nightforce is/was an Australian company. The tubes and turrets are made here, along with the assembly of the scopes. Many of the parts are sourced from other countries, to include the glass, which comes from Europe, Japan and even China.

I didn't say they don't use glass from other places, although prior to the Comp series, I did think their glass came from Japan. I'm glad to have a quality scope maker, that makes much of the scope here, along with customer support and service here.
Very few, if any manfacturers of anything, make every part of their product. Even products that I machine and make here have Chinese fasteners in places. I try to source things as locally as possible, but it's hard to do that on some items, be it from price or simple availability issues. I consider it a sad but true factor in manufacturing virtually anything today, unfortunately.

Look around, wherever you are, and count five things that are made here at all, much less every component of each item. It's pretty easy to find the first 2-3 things that are made here, but 4 and 5 get pretty tough.

CNN is bashing Trump for his "buy American, hire American" executive order, saying it'll be bad for the country. I can't get my head wrapped around such non-sense. If people buy more from me and I need to hire more American labor, how is this bad for my country? Isn't that putting money in my pocket, their pocket and ultimately, everyone's pocket..even if goods made here cost more? Didn't this cycle generate the money we have to buy with, in the first place?

Sorry, didn't mean to get political.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Of course most buy their glass from the glass makers, to include Chinese made glass. S&B being the lone ranger McMillan used to assemble scopes here in the U.S.

I might be wrong but I highly doubt every component of either was entirely made here. Glass is just one.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

One area we as long range shooters are miles behind short range Benchrest shooters is scope evaluation. I am just diving into it my self, but in short range they have tested scopes for years. Opinions are just that. If I want meaningful answers on scopes I want to ask guys who have tested them. But, for some reason those guys dont talk publicly about it. Either to keep the advantage or because most likely they will get jumped on by somebody.

Alex, isn't that what you're getting right here? I have no secrets and I don't think many of the br community hold much back in the sharing of their findings/beliefs. Myself, and most NF owners are very happy with NF products. Being much more quantifiable with optics is a tough task. It's hard to measure minuscule poa changes in the field or at the range, given all of the variables involved. I've not done it personally, but I would think it fairly easy to "freeze" a NF by removing the spring that's at a 45° to the lower left of the tube and installing a soft tip set screw. This would prove, good or bad, their poa capabilities/limitations.

 

[lawrence97]

I've had 2 NF competitions and have 2 March scopes (10-60 and 8-80). The glass on The NF did seem a tad brighter/clearer than my March 10-60. The NF wasn't brighter than my 8-80 but it's a 34mm tube with larger objective. I prefer the way things look thru my March scopes and I prefer the adjustments/zero stop and feel of the March scopes.

It is true that you see more NF comps on the line but they also support many matches/disciplines and give out a lot of free scopes. I haven't seen March scopes being handed out like NF!

Also, I am sure many of the top shooters and US fclass team members are in some way sponsored or supported by NF. They must get the scopes donated or at a very reduced rate compared to the rest. That is most likely why the majority of top shooters Are seen at the big matches rockin a NF.

As someone else mentioned, if you can look thru both on the the same day with same conditions, that's the best way to decide which looks best for your own set of eyes!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex, isn't that what you're getting right here? I have no secrets and I don't think many of the br community hold much back in the sharing of their findings/beliefs. Myself, and most NF owners are very happy with NF products. Being much more quantifiable with optics is a tough task. It's hard to measure minuscule poa changes in the field or at the range, given all of the variables involved. I've not done it personally, but I would think it fairly easy to "freeze" a NF by removing the spring that's at a 45° to the lower left of the tube and installing a soft tip set screw. This would prove, good or bad, their poa capabilities/limitations.

You are talking the BR scope with that spring that protrudes?? I dont know if you have done any scope testing?. If so, Id like to hear what you have found. I know Bart has and so has Lou Murdica, its one of those things you'd expect to read more on, but you just dont see it posted. Hood used to market a scope tester, Id love to see something like that one the market again. We expect so much out of bullets, barrels, and gunsmiths, but take our scopes 100% on faith. After being down that road once, I wont trust another scope that I have not tested.

This way of testing a scope does not duplicate recoil or blast concision.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You are talking the BR scope with that spring that protrudes?? I dont know if you have done any scope testing?. If so, Id like to hear what you have found. I know Bart has and so has Lou Murdica, its one of those things you'd expect to read more on, but you just dont see it posted. Hood used to market a scope tester, Id love to see something like that one the market again. We expect so much out of bullets, barrels, and gunsmiths, but take our scopes 100% on faith. After being down that road once, I wont trust another scope that I have not tested.

This way of testing a scope does not duplicate recoil or blast concision.

I've not done imperical testing but I'm familiar with the Hood scope checker. It has a couple of inherent problems. First, it's a comparative tool, comparing one scope's movement to the other. If one moves, it'd be hard to tell which one it was. Another thing is heat. Thermal expansion on one side vs the other. I've read claims of someone stating .020 movement @ 100 yards. I question that kind of resolution. How was .020 at 100 yards measured...which scope moved and was it the reticle, the scope tube, the mount, the rifle or fixture it's mounted on, or what?

The idea is good and would show an obvious poa problem , but I have my doubts about it being reliable for minuscule movement, i.e., .020@100 yards.

 

[JRS]

I might be wrong but I highly doubt every component of either was entirely made here. Glass is just one.

S&B isn't made here, and McMillan assembled scopes here, using the components made in Japan.

 

[Gman]

The factory heaadquarters is in the U.S. Unless Ray Dennis has changed something very recently, Nightforce is/was an Australian company. The tubes and turrets are made here, along with the assembly of the scopes. Many of the parts are sourced from other countries, to include the glass, which comes from Europe, Japan and even China.

I was told (by Nightforce) that the tubes & lens for the BR models are made in Japan. Internal parts are from all over, and assembly is in the USA. I am very content with my BR series mounted on my target rifles.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I've not done imperical testing but I'm familiar with the Hood scope checker. It has a couple of inherent problems. First, it's a comparative tool, comparing one scope's movement to the other. If one moves, it'd be hard to tell which one it was. Another thing is heat. Thermal expansion on one side vs the other. I've read claims of someone stating .020 movement @ 100 yards. I question that kind of resolution. How was .020 at 100 yards measured...which scope moved and was it the reticle, the scope tube, the mount, the rifle or fixture it's mounted on, or what?

The idea is good and would show an obvious poa problem , but I have my doubts about it being reliable for minuscule movement, i.e., .020@100 yards.

I think for it to really work your control scope should be frozen. .020" I can't believe. The scopes are fixed together and that mount is not going to grow .020" which is the only way thermal expansion is going to make the reticles move .020". I also dont know how they would measure that at the target. The human eye is pretty good, if you cant detect the test scope reticle moving, its pretty solid. I know you could pick up .050" with your eye. I'll know more soon. Im going to be testing anything I can get my hands on soon.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

S&B isn't made here, and McMillan assembled scopes here, using the components made in Japan.

That's my point but I didn't pay a bit of attention to S&B being made in Germany. I knew that and meant to emphasize my point that even American made products are seldom 100% American made.

 

[dkhunt14]

Of course most buy their glass from the glass makers, to include Chinese made glass. S&B being the lone ranger McMillan used to assemble scopes here in the U.S.

And Swarovski grinds their own. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

I was told (by Nightforce) that the tubes & lens for the BR models are made in Japan. Internal parts are from all over, and assembly is in the USA. I am very content with my BR series mounted on my target rifles.

I was told the tubes are made here in their new plant with state of the art CNC machinery. That was from the Nightforce sales rep. at a match. Matt

 

[JRS]

I was told the tubes are made here in their new plant with state of the art CNC machinery. That was from the Nightforce sales rep. at a match. Matt

Read the interview with the founder/owner of Nightforce, along with post #62. There is more on the horizon for Nightforce Ray Dennis is quite a businessman, and the acquisition of Horis Vision Reticle Technologies was another a stepping stone

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

To me, the NF Comp is the best glass available at any price for a scope intended for our sport. I also like that they are an American company and have a great warranty. Although, I think problems with them are extremely rare, I don't doubt that you could have a defect or issue with them, just as with any make, model or price scope or product in general.

I will also say that perceived differences in "cutting through" mirage is just that..perception. Just as turning the power down will make mirage less noticeable, it doesn't mean it's not there...just that you don't see it. I believe that the better glass simply sees mirage that lesser glass does not. JMHO.

The reason the NF Comp has such good glass is because it uses ED glass. Because they do call it ED glass, I believe they get at least that glass from Nikon, because ED and Super-ED glass are Nikon products, something they developed for their camera lenses in the 1970s.

ED glass has been introduced to riflescopes in the last few years. It has also been introduced to spotting scopes, even before riflescopes because birders. These folk love their ED or fluorite glass in their scopes. Fluorite glass is currently the best for eliminating chromatic aberration, but it's fragile and very expensive. The ED glass developed by Nikon goes a long way to eliminate CA, and it's a lot sturdier than fluorite and, while more expensive than regular optical glass, it's not as expensive as fluorite glass.

If this was the first riflescope you got with ED glass, I totally get your opening statement. My March-X 5-50X56 also has ED glass, (probably Nikon's for the reason stated earlier) and comparing to my Nightforce NXS 12-42x56 just makes the latter pale in comparison. I wrote a fairly long post here over a year ago comparing the Comp to the March-X and the reasons why I went with the March-X. I like its 13% larger objective and its 10 yards (vs 25 yard) focusing range.

The March-X High Master series mentioned in another thread uses Super-ED glass, another Nikon product. This gets it even closer to fluorite glass "perfection."

It has been my observation that mirage is being tamed by ED glass, to the point where I discern it but it is not affecting the target the way non-ED glass show it to my eye. Also, mirage is a function of depth of field. The greater the depth of field, the more mirage you will discern. Depth of field is a function of magnification, distance and aperture. The larger objective lens of the March-X (56mm VS 52mm on the Comp), will reduce the depth of field. I also believe that the March-X has larger internal lenses in its 34mm tube with a still-constrained 60MOA total adjustment range. That probably increases the aperture and thus further reduces the depth of field.

That said, I see mirage in my 82mm Kowa without ED lenses, that I do not see in my March-X. Of course, the two optics are focused at different distances, but the images are dramatically different to my eye in heavy mirage days, which is pretty much every match at Bayou, except when the wind is above 15MPH or there's actual frost on the ground. Even that last one does not last much past the first few hours of direct sunlight.


ETA: I also take note of some devices sold by some riflescope manufacturers that partially hide the objective lens. This has the effect of reducing the aperture, increasing the f-number and extending the depth of field, and thus show even more mirage. I noticed the same thing using a medium yellow filter on my NXS, which had the effect of increasing the f-number by 2/3 stops and showed we the mirage more distinctly.

Mirage is due to sunlight going through water vapor and hot air vs colder air, refraction, different wavelengths, etc. It is my belief (a hypothesis, really) that this increases the color fringing and the ED glass reduces or eliminates this somewhat and thus tames it. One day, when I get really smart and have some time to spend doing this, I will put the hypothesis on paper with calculation to either confirm or infirm said hypothesis. For now, all I have are data points collected from empirical tests.

 

[JRS]

Everyone is now attaching the ED moniker on glass. The company that can produce quality, along with quantity at the lowest price, wins the the contract. Much like diamonds, it depends upon how much a scope manufacturer is willing to pay for quality control. NIKKOR produces camera lenses. They don't make scope/binocular lenses.