Long range load development at 100 yards.

[Killick]

That's what I thought. I'll need to check it head to head with another chrono next range session.

 

[michaelnel]

This is an OCW series shot with the 6 Dasher rifle I just bought. The upper left target was sighters. Target #1, marked with a charge of "31." was actually also 31.3gr of RL15 like the sighters. This was shot at 100 yards, shot the sighters first, then round robin #1 to #8, let it cool, then shot #8 to #1, let it cool, then #1 to #8 again, to spread the effects of fouling, shooter error, barrel temp around. I did not encounter pressure signs at any of these charge weights.

I thought there was a node at around 32.2, and another at around 32.7.

What do you folks think?

 

[Erik Cortina]

This is an OCW series shot with the 6 Dasher rifle I just bought. The upper left target was sighters. Target #1, marked with a charge of "31." was actually also 31.3gr of RL15 like the sighters. This was shot at 100 yards, shot the sighters first, then round robin #1 to #8, let it cool, then shot #8 to #1, let it cool, then #1 to #8 again, to spread the effects of fouling, shooter error, barrel temp around. I did not encounter pressure signs at any of these charge weights.

I thought there was a node at around 32.2, and another at around 32.7.

What do you folks think?

Nodes should be wider than .3 gr. Do you have chronograph data to help us decipher this target?

 

[michaelnel]

Do you have chronograph data to help us decipher this target?

Sorry, I did not have my chrono mounted when I shot that series.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Do you have chronograph data to help us decipher this target?

Sorry, I did not have my chrono mounted when I shot that series.

That's going to make it hard to decipher because the groups are inconsistent. Try again but do not do round robbin, shoot groups individually.

 

[michaelnel]

Try again but do not do round robbin, shoot groups individually.

Thanks, will do.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Try again but do not do round robbin, shoot groups individually.

Thanks, will do.

And get chronograph data as well please.

 

[michaelnel]

OK, shot it again today, this time all 3 shot groups, no round robin (I shot three rounds at #1, then moved to #2 and shot 3 rounds, etc.). The upper left target was all sighters. I let the rifle cool after 3 groups and the sighters.

The groups are lousy. I am really having trouble getting this thing to shoot. I shot it at 600 yards yesterday with a 32.8gr load and it would pack 4 into a 1.7-2.0" group but almost always managed to throw a wild flier, so the groups ballooned out to as much as 7". Shot all five round groups, and the best was 2.5". So far it is by far the most expensive rifle I have ever owned, and shoots the worst of all the rifles I own. I hope I can get this worked out. It's probably something I am doing wrong, but I have not figured out what it is.

Note... I screwed up and shot the first shot for target #5 on target #4. DOH! So I used a Sharpie to ink in where that shot would be on the #5 target if I wasn't such an idiot. That is why the bullet hole on #4 is connected by an arrow to the inked in one on #5. The real 3 shots for #4 are the two on the upper border of the box and the one inside the box.

I had more rounds loaded, at 33.2 and 33.4, but I had stiff bolt lift on the 33.0s so I did not shoot the hotter ones.

Here is the target image:

I shot all these with the Magnetospeed V3 mounted, and here are the results. The "series" number in the results corresponds to the target numbers in the picture.
Series 1 Shots: 3
Min 2908 Max 2921
Avg 2916 S-D 7.2
ES 13

Series Shot Speed
1 1 2921 ft/s
1 2 2908 ft/s
1 3 2920 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

Series 2 Shots: 3
Min 2904 Max 2944
Avg 2925 S-D 20.1
ES 40

Series Shot Speed
2 1 2904 ft/s
2 2 2944 ft/s
2 3 2928 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

Series 3 Shots: 3
Min 2936 Max 2944
Avg 2939 S-D 4.3
ES 8

Series Shot Speed
3 1 2944 ft/s
3 2 2937 ft/s
3 3 2936 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

Series 4 Shots: 3
Min 2942 Max 2953
Avg 2947 S-D 5.4
ES 11

Series Shot Speed
4 1 2942 ft/s
4 2 2947 ft/s
4 3 2953 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

Series 5 Shots: 3
Min 2945 Max 2962
Avg 2953 S-D 8.5
ES 17

Series Shot Speed
5 1 2962 ft/s
5 2 2954 ft/s
5 3 2945 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

Series 6 Shots: 3
Min 2971 Max 2975
Avg 2972 S-D 2.2
ES 4

Series Shot Speed
6 1 2975 ft/s
6 2 2971 ft/s
6 3 2971 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

 

[michaelnel]

Sounds and looks to me like you need to figure out the "flier" aspect

What would you suggest for how to figure out what is causing the fliers?

What do you think is the node in this test range? Looks to me like around 32.5 is the center of one based on the targets and the chrono data.

 

[michaelnel]

I have attached a graph. Looks like it leveled out between 32.4 and 32.6 grains.

 

[JRS]

No offense intended, but if you are using the load specs handed down to you, it's the guy behind the trigger. Don't worry so much about using your chronograph until you can lay down consistent groups. You've been given a load that has worked….. now it's up to you!

 

[Raythemanroe]

Try a tuner. Have you tried the load handed down with the gun? I'm thinking someone is wasting money in the wrong places..




Ray

 

[jlow]

Do you have chronograph data to help us decipher this target?

Sorry, I did not have my chrono mounted when I shot that series.

That's going to make it hard to decipher because the groups are inconsistent. Try again but do not do round robbin, shoot groups individually.

Just wondering why not do round robin - seems like the best way to avoid potential artifacts from barrel temperature and fouling?

 

[michaelnel]

Look guys. Alex told me he was using a particularly hot batch of 4895 and a very old batch of varget. He also had great success with RL15 but ran short of it and advised me to use it since I have it. He gave me his loading notes, and there is LOTS of RL15 stuff in those notes.

He did not "hand me down" a load, and in fact told me more than once I would need to do my own load development. I am trying to do that. Why are you guys busting my chops about it?

Alex wants me to do my development at 1000 yards, and I do not have easy access to do that. Where we shoot 1000 and 600, I can only do it when certain club members are there, and it is a very structured practice session. I will try to do it there when I can, but the range is more than an hours drive away, and I can only do it on Mondays.

I need to find the right charge weight, and I think maybe I have (32.5). Next is to follow Alex's advice and go out to the range with 32.5s seated long and my arbor press and tune the seating depths.

As for the flyers, I just went over the gun with a torque wrench. I found that the rear action screw was way looser than the front one, also probably my fault.

I won't bug you guys any more about this, I will work it out on my own. Thanks for your help.

 

[BenPerfected]

Look guys. Alex told me he was using a particularly hot batch of 4895 and a very old batch of varget. He also had great success with RL15 but ran short of it and advised me to use it since I have it. He gave me his loading notes, and there is LOTS of RL15 stuff in those notes.

He did not "hand me down" a load, and in fact told me more than once I would need to do my own load development. I am trying to do that. Why are you guys busting my chops about it? I am trying to do exactly what Alex said. I need to find the right charge weight, and I think maybe I have (32.5). Next is to go out to the range with 32.5s seated long and my arbor press and tune the seating depths.

As for the flyers, I just went over the gun with a torque wrench. I found that the rear action screw was way looser than the front one, also probably my fault.

I won't bug you guys any more about this, I will work it out on my own.

Michael,
I hope you keep posting and that re-torqueing the action screws helps. I am still working daily doing the same things you are doing which is trying to be consistent. My next move is do just what you are considering which is to pick out one load and work some with a tuner. I doubt any tuner will be a home run, but it will likely help and at some point you will probably end up with a tuner.
I am starting to believe that if the brass neck tension isn't close to perfect, it will remain difficult to measure the impact of various power charges and seating depths.
I hope you will keep us posted on your journey,
Ben

 

[Brians356]

Look guys. Alex told me he was using ... He did not "hand me down" a load ...

Did I miss something? How would anyone reading this thread even know who you bought the rifle from? And how well it supposedly shot? And what would make anyone assume anything about what load dope you may have had "handed down" with it?

I don't find where you previously mentioned anything in this thread. But my organic search engine might not be up to the task ... Who the deuce is "Alex"?

 

[jlow]

Sorry you are getting frustrated, but it is certainly understandable…

I think the fliers unfortunately are always hard to diagnose because as already listed, quite a few thing can contribute and without being there next to the gun and reloading, it’s always a bit hard to daignose. I would agree that neck tension is usually a culprit and I hope that fix with the rear action screw will also help. The good news is your SDEV looks very good and that to me says that your neck tension is likely good which in my opinion is not a small thing...

Personally I find QuickLoad a great help as it is amazingly accurate predicting where the accuracy node is if you take time to put in the correct and accurate information it needs. Knowing where you need to be really helps to avoid that “swimming in the big ocean and not knowing where the hell I need to be” feeling. It takes time to learn but in the end it will help you a lot to save time, material, and frustrations.

 

[JRS]

I believe the biggest reason for frustration is due to someone purchasing a gun that shot well for someone else, believing the gun is a winner, no matter what. I have a pair of Bobby Chacon's gloves used during an arse whupping he put on Boza Edwards, If I lace those gloves on, am I then going to whip the Pac man? Hardly. It is a good sales pitch, eh?

 

[daniel brothers]

I thought that the 31.6 or 31.8 on the first set of targets looked like they had good potential for the powder weight, and that seating depth could possibly pull it together even more... and it's pretty good now.

Your second set of targets did not show these charges.

 

[Elwood]

Sounds and looks to me like you need to figure out the "flier" aspect

What would you suggest for how to figure out what is causing the fliers?

What do you think is the node in this test range? Looks to me like around 32.5 is the center of one based on the targets and the chrono data.

In all honesty looking at your targets I would be changing powder. That's probably not want you want to hear, but you're shooting a inherently accurate cartridge and I don't think any amount of tweaking is going to turn that into the stupidly accurate round that it should be.
Sometimes you have to cut your loses and move on, but I hope you get it figured out and prove me wrong.