I think I have a case of "dead soft" brass....

[done111]

So I think I might have "dead soft" brass after annealing. Up until now I have been salt bath annealing Peterson brass with no issue after every firing. I crank the salt bath to 525C (about 1000F), dip the neck and shoulder in for 5 seconds, pitch em in a bucket of water....wallah....annealed brass with consistent neck tension when seating bullets. Note that I body size using Redding die and neck size using a Lee collet die as separate processes.

Now I performed the exact same process on some Hornady once fired brass. This time when I seat bullets the tension is not good. Several of them to the point that if I let go of the arm of the press, the press will seat the bullet by itself.

Now I understand that the Peterson brass is thicker, and I guess that includes the neck thickness? I actually loaded a batch of 100 bullets this way (Hornady) figuring after putting all the time into loading the powder, I could crimp these for now and see how consistent they might actually shoot.

Has this happened to anyone else? Only difference is Hornady vs. Peterson brass. Any words of the best way to crimp? I have a Lee crimp die but have never use it. Is this brass gonna get better or should I chuck it?

I have some of the same brass that has been annealed only the hasn't been run through the dies. I am going to do some experimenting on this additional brass....like double check that my Lee neck sizer is working properly. Any other things a person can do with this brass to see if it is "proper"?

Don

 

[ireload2]

I have some 6.5 Jap brass that was over annealed before I got it.

It was annealed after firing but before resizing. When FL sizing is attempted the shoulder collapses. The shoulder accordions and the neck telescopes down inside the case.
There were only 20 and I lost 2. After that I sized with a trim die and then the FL die. The 2 step process saved the 18 cases left. I didn't really need them but I thought I would see what I could learn from them. If further sizing work hardens the shoulder they might return to normal temper. If not they are scrap and I will know not to waste my time in the future.

You might try FL sizing and see what happens.

 

[Texas10]

I just put a batch of 100 Hornaday 6.5 CM brass through my Salt Bath anneal process with very good results. Same as you, in for about 5 sec and then into a bucket of water, size, wet tumble, load and go.

No sure, but did you say you're sizing after anneal, or before?

 

[ireload2]

I anneal 4 seconds with a propane torch.
I have a 1" long pencil flame held 1/2 inch from the case neck.

The color that I anneal to is a wet appearing aquamarine.
I use a Lee case spinner in a drill motor. I have annealed thousands of times and never lost a case due to the annealing process.

 

[chuckshooter]

I would think that you could work harden it by resizing with a standard type die. every time it is sized you would gain a little more

 

[done111]

I just put a batch of 100 Hornaday 6.5 CM brass through my Salt Bath anneal process with very good results. Same as you, in for about 5 sec and then into a bucket of water, size, wet tumble, load and go.

No sure, but did you say you're sizing after anneal, or before?

Body and neck size after annealing. It is 6.5 Creedmoor brass.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

Body and neck size after annealing. It is 6.5 Creedmoor brass.

How are you sizing the necks? With a bushing? If so, it could simply be the Hornady brass has thinner necks than Peterson and you would need a smaller bushing for the Hornady. If you mic the necks, how thick are the Hornady vs. the Peterson?

 

[rain164845]

How are you sizing the necks? With a bushing? If so, it could simply be the Hornady brass has thinner necks than Peterson and you would need a smaller bushing for the Hornady. If you mic the necks, how thick are the Hornady vs. the Peterson?

This was my guess also

 

[done111]

How are you sizing the necks? With a bushing? If so, it could simply be the Hornady brass has thinner necks than Peterson and you would need a smaller bushing for the Hornady. If you mic the necks, how thick are the Hornady vs. the Peterson?

No bushing, I'm using a Lee collet neck sizer. I just tried some extra brass I had in the Lee collet neck sizer and not bad on tension......now I'm thinking when i trimmed the brass after body and neck sizing (as two separate functions), the brass was soft enough that it might have expanded during trimming in my Hornady trimmer and/or during chamfering. I might change my process to Redding body sizing, then trimming when needed (to the low side), chamfer and deburr, then......neck size. I know the brass might get a wee bit longer, but I'm thinking the body sizing is where most of the brass is pushed up from.

Also, I'm wondering if I might crank down the temperature of the salt bath. I feel like the brass that is submerged in the salt bath for 5 seconds is dang close to the temperature of the bath. That bath is all around the ID and OD of the brass. I hear 750F is what you are trying to get the brass to. I think I'm getting most, if not the whole 1000F right now. I might shoot for something like 800F for a salt bath.

 

[T-shooter]

I would think that you could work harden it by resizing with a standard type die. every time it is sized you would gain a little more

It will reharden if it's not over cooked. When I was learning & experimenting, I over annealed some brass (turning it red hot) and ran it through a resizing die and expander over 20 times. It was still dead and had zero springback.

 

[carlsbad]

although your annealing temperature sounds a little high (switch to 750 as suggested), I don't think that is the problem. You die need adjusted to provide more neck tension.

If your brass really is overcooked, it will have a pinking hue and won't reharden. Zinc melts at 787 deg F. If you heated much above this, metallurgical changes beyond annealing occur, and the brass is trash.--Jerry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If you run 1000f, you think your brass gets to full temp, but youre looking to get 750f - why would you set it on 800f? If it was me id set it to 700f and work up from there. Brass will work fine if underannealed but are scrap if overannealed. Sneak up on it

 

[Webster]

although your annealing temperature sounds a little high (switch to 750 as suggested), I don't think that is the problem. You die need adjusted to provide more neck tension.

If your brass really is overcooked, it will have a pinking hue and won't reharden. Zinc melts at 787 deg F. If you heated much above this, metallurgical changes beyond annealing occur, and the brass is trash.--Jerry

Cartridge brass melts at 1700F. The zinc does not melt until 1700F.

 

[Webster]

If you run 1000f, you think your brass gets to full temp, but youre looking to get 750f - why would you set it on 800f? If it was me id set it to 700f and work up from there. Brass will work fine if underannealed but are scrap if overannealed. Sneak up on it

I know it will not be over annealed at 850F for 5 seconds. 1000F 5 seconds your near the temp and time for rapid softening.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You can do what you want with your brass but i think youll find its better to not even anneal than teeter on the edge of over annealing. Its a fine line

 

[carlsbad]

Cartridge brass melts at 1700F. The zinc does not melt until 1700F.

Zinc by itself melts at 787. https://www.onlinemetals.com/meltpt.cfm

I chose my words carefully when I said above this temperatures "metallurgical changes beyond annealing occur"

--Jerry

 

[stifffingers]

No bushing, I'm using a Lee collet neck sizer. I just tried some extra brass I had in the Lee collet neck sizer and not bad on tension......now I'm thinking when i trimmed the brass after body and neck sizing (as two separate functions), the brass was soft enough that it might have expanded during trimming in my Hornady trimmer and/or during chamfering. I might change my process to Redding body sizing, then trimming when needed (to the low side), chamfer and deburr, then......neck size. I know the brass might get a wee bit longer, but I'm thinking the body sizing is where most of the brass is pushed up from.

Also, I'm wondering if I might crank down the temperature of the salt bath. I feel like the brass that is submerged in the salt bath for 5 seconds is dang close to the temperature of the bath. That bath is all around the ID and OD of the brass. I hear 750F is what you are trying to get the brass to. I think I'm getting most, if not the whole 1000F right now. I might shoot for something like 800F for a salt bath.

IMHO you could read the FAQ on the AMP site and find your answer. The fact that annealed brass looses its spring back may influence what you are experiencing. The variances in brass hardness most certainly will effect the neck tension.

 

[done111]

I know it will not be over annealed at 850F for 5 seconds. 1000F 5 seconds your near the temp and time for rapid softening.

Will the brass be under annealed at 850F for 5 seconds? The 1000F is commonly thrown out there as the salt bath temperature to use and there isn't much info regarding the perfect time and temp of salt bath annealing other than those numbers.

 

[243winxb]

using a Lee collet neck sizer.

Get a smaller Custom mandrel for the thin necks.

 

[Webster]

No bushing, I'm using a Lee collet neck sizer. I just tried some extra brass I had in the Lee collet neck sizer and not bad on tension......now I'm thinking when i trimmed the brass after body and neck sizing (as two separate functions), the brass was soft enough that it might have expanded during trimming in my Hornady trimmer and/or during chamfering. I might change my process to Redding body sizing, then trimming when needed (to the low side), chamfer and deburr, then......neck size. I know the brass might get a wee bit longer, but I'm thinking the body sizing is where most of the brass is pushed up from.

Also, I'm wondering if I might crank down the temperature of the salt bath. I feel like the brass that is submerged in the salt bath for 5 seconds is dang close to the temperature of the bath. That bath is all around the ID and OD of the brass. I hear 750F is what you are trying to get the brass to. I think I'm getting most, if not the whole 1000F right now. I might shoot for something like 800F for a salt bath.

I wasn't familiar with the Lee collett die so I looked it up. Looks like it isn't adjustable for tension or case neck thickness. Your stuck with the factory dimensions. If you don't think you have neck tension measure an annealed case neck o.d. seat a bullet then measure again. You want an increas of about 0.002".

1000F for 5 sec may be ok but i would go 800-850 for a margin of safety.