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How to deal with a non-responsive gunsmith?

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I tried to call him but he didn't answer and left him a message. I talked with a friend in Maryland last night who also dropped off an action, stock and barrel and he hasn't heard from you know who in over 2 months. I know he has been sidelined with major health issues and has been unable to work. I'll keep trying to contact him.
Thank you Jim
 
No ATF...thats crazy. I got it, the guy has a build that’s yours. I’ve been there with longshotrifles. Waited 2.5 years to get build back right before he went bankrupt. But I didn’t go snitching to some 3 letter alphabet boi wanna be about it. If you’re a smith or an FFL and you have to deal with the ATF, I understand. But to intentionally bring them into a civil dispute over property? No way. There’s been like 5 votes for the ATF in this thread. Is getting the smiths dog killed really worth it?
 
I tend to think if this was your equipment you would have a different outlook and would be more willing to offer help as opposed to being negative about what is being presented to help this guy out.

Bottom line is, if the smith isn't going through a life changing event, sickness or something of that nature he owes customers a response to where their equipment is. If however he is unable to make contact with his customer base because of sickness I wish him well and a speedy recovery.

Like I mentioned before, a call to the PA State Police would answer a lot of questions
I wonder how much info the police can give out because of privacy laws. id call them and ask for sure.
 
It is totally understandable for anyone to feel betrayed and lied to outright by a "smith" when it seems he has fallen off the face of the earth. But, when this occurs with a couple of projects it seems the long time customer base of these "fallen heros lightly" will continue to take their parts and pieces to them. If when these first failed projects become open aired to the public the hatchet was dropped on them it would save lots of grief. Yes there is an art to building a rifle that is capable of shooting straight but that "one apple gone bad" did not create a vacunm and suck all the other good builders up with him. There are still good reliable builders out there that will do a great job and do their best to hold a time frame. A great recommendation is ODCR (WSMNUT) here on the site. Try him and see for yourself.
And if you look around you will find one close to home that does not choose advertise for one reason or another.
 
ATF and the local law will tell you that it is a civil problem. My one and only gunsmith problem happened several years ago. I had 2 previous jobs with him that were top notch. He was a wood stock person. I contacted the ATF and they said that it was a civil problem. I decided to contact the local law enforcement in Dodge City. No, it wasn't Marshall Matt Dillon, but a young detective took the case after I filed a theft report. They found him living in a storage building. He went to jail. He was convicted and put on probation. I did get my metal work back and he paid the court about $25 a month to the court and they sent it to me until my monetary loss was repaid.
This was my second contact with the local law before they would work the case. I was going to his trial, but they allowed him a plea deal.
I disagree with bothering your chosen craftsman or driving to his shop to look over his shoulder. If you will do your due diligence and get your patience out of your pocket it will end well.
That’s interesting. I know the ATF has bigger fish to fry but it seems like they would be interested in theft of serial numbered actions/firearms. I learned a little and still have to check more. Thanks

edit:: I never had to report a stolen gun so I just learned off the ATF website that they Do Not take stolen firearm reports from individuals.
 
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Here is the background.

I was looking for advice on a gunsmith back in 2018. One of the prominent members of this forum contacted me via pm and recommended his gunsmith. I contacted his gunsmith and went out to visit him in PA (I'm from IN). Based on that meeting and some research on his match shooting performance I decided to go ahead and have him build me two rifles. One was to be built on a new action and the second was to be built on a action I already owned. He was going to purchase a new action from Borden, build the stocks (from his blank supplier), thread and chamber the barrels, install a bix trigger on the new action, and fit everything together (action ordered on April 5, 2018). Down payment check for 1/2 the action and 1/2 the stock blanks arrives on April 9, 2018. I ship my 4 barrels to his shop and they arrive on April 10, 2018. June 19, 2018 stockmaker mangles his shoulder and they will be delayed. In the mean time he re-barrels another firearm for me and the workmanship is outstanding (turn around time was a little over a month). Stocks show up on July 17, 2018. New Action arrives on Aug 22, 2018. February 8, 2019 rifles are promised to be ready in time for the arrival of decent weather. May 19, 2019 rifle still don't done but suggestions are made to making progress and not compromising on quality. October 22, 2019 stock finishing problems start to develop and problems develop with a new lathe. Jan 23, 2020 text sent indicating good progress I inquire about having them ready to make the first match of the season on 4/4/20. He says they should be taken care of without a problem. May 8, 2020 He indicates he has two hard coats down on each of the stocks. May 15, 2020 and the stock hiccups are supposed to be behind us. October 8, 2020 stock are out for finishing and he's supposed to be working on the remaining metal work. Nov 17, 2020 Guy doing the final finishing gets hit by a motorcycle. April 1, 2021 supposed to be getting close.... Last communication was on April 3, 2021.

A project that was supposed to take 6-8 months has taken over 3 years and now I cannot get a response via text or phone. I have been more than accommodating and have not blown up his phone looking for updates (a call or text every couple of months). If I didn't know the quality of work is outstanding I would never let this go on so long. Since I haven't been able to get a response in over a month I'm trying to figure out what to do now.

Any advice?
Well you’ve sure got a lot of interesting and varied responses. I hope things turn out well in the matter for you. Please keep us informed what happens. Thanks and good luck.
 
I scanned through the entire thread.


There are a bunch of us on here from PA. If we knew who he is...or at least what area of the state he is in, we might be able to be of some local help. Atleast drive by and see if the lights are on...


These are always a gray area. You entered into somewhat of a civil contact. On the other hand you can call it theft of services and materials. It really can go either way. I'd bet most LE agencies would try to help but wouldn't immediately call it a theft. He hasn't told you that you can't get them back or he's keeping your stuff. He just hasn't delivered them back and now you can't reach him. But, if LE was involved and they gave him a call or visit, it could get the ball rolling.


It's he's in the western side of the state, send me a PM. I'd be glad not to use him for anything....and be glad to see what I can do.
 
I have to disagree. If this were about something like car work, or other disputes then yes it most likely would go to Civil Court for resolution. In this situation the action or receiver is the part that is registered as a firearm. As it stands now the OP is missing a firearm. He could possibly be at risk if the registered part was lost, stolen, or completed and used in crime. I know that this scenario is unlikely so just using it as an extreme example.

These are his parts he paid for and no communication from the GS. He should ask and demand his parts to be returned. If the GS can not complete the job in a reasonable time then man up, say I'm sorry, but I can't complete your project, and return any deposit along with the parts.

Do a background check for contact information. Try again to contact the GS. If that does not work then it's time to escalate. Contact local police and see if they are willing to help, the man has your firearm and will not return it.

I have contacted the ATF on 3 occasions. One call got a person who couldn't help. Called another number and the agents were more than happy to help. I would not hesitate calling ATF. The OP has done nothing wrong, it's the man who has to have a license to receive and work on firearms that is the problem.

I agree with a previous poster that it does not make any sense to send all the parts and wait 2 years. The gunsmith could take a non-refundable deposit of some amount with the written understanding that the customer will be notified 4 weeks before estimated date he can start the build. Then the customer sends the parts and have to be delivered 1 week before that date. I don't present this as the solution but as a conversation point.

I do not know anything about gunsmiths or their business but a better solution to this issue could be found.
The only thing that throws a monkey in that wrench is he gave the action to the GS for work. The GS did not steal the action and parts. It's a business agreement plain and simple. Could be a simple case of the GS got covid and is ill. Car wreck, death of a family member etc. Many scenarios could be the case. That all said, he should have been in touch but it's certainly no law offense at this point.
 
The only time this happened to me was when my gun smith in S. Ca. had his daughter end up in some kind of trouble. He literally lost business sense, was taking 50% down payments on custom builds, spending the money for personal needs.

I had a Hall M action laying on his bench, new Hart barrel, reamer, McMillen Stock, and Jewel trigger. It was laying on the bench right where I placed 14 months prior. My Rem 700, two Shilen barrel blanks, McMillen hunter class stock were laying in the pile also, but my New Hendrickson 222 Mag reamer was lost.

Gunsmith ended up loosing everything and going bankrupt. I was lucky that I got my stuff back. Many people lost a LOT of money.
 
Same story different professions.

Taxidermists are the same, ive had a couple of mounts go out way too far.

Then there are machine shops.

Now if any of you are car guys you may have had similar experiences with machine shops.
Leave 6 to 8 grand worth of iron , steel and aluminum with the guy. Then wait , wait , wait and wait some more. " 1 month " turns into 10 pretty fast.
 
The only thing that throws a monkey in that wrench is he gave the action to the GS for work. The GS did not steal the action and parts. It's a business agreement plain and simple. Could be a simple case of the GS got covid and is ill. Car wreck, death of a family member etc. Many scenarios could be the case. That all said, he should have been in touch but it's certainly no law offense at this point.
The OP turned over his property to the GS with the expectation of service rendered (with the expectation of a "reasonable" amount of time for services to be completed). He did not voluntarily "give" the GS his property. There is a difference. There is a binding business contract and the GS is bound to perform these services within a reasonable amount of time or the OP now becomes deprived of his property. It "IS" against the law. I would suggest as others have to contact the GS's local law enforcement to at least document his complaint and acquire a case number. He could go further to request a "welfare check" on this individual as well. And if contact is made, the local PD could advise the subject to contact the complainant. This way, the OP now has proof of contact and should be no reason why the GS would be dodging the Op's communications. We're not talking about the repair of a toaster, we are talking about firearm components. Perhaps even a mailed letterhead from an attorney's office would help things along as well.
 
I have no patience with professionals that have placed themselves on a pinnacle. Is a doctor’s time more valuable than yours? How many appointments have you had that you were told to show up 15 minutes early, and then wait 2 hours past your appointment time? Oh, and if you’re late, they will charge you $50. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers…it seems like they all believe they are doing you a favor to take your money. Deadlines and promises might as well be punchlines in a joke. This is why we have become a litigious society. At one time, if you shook a man’s hand, you could count on an outcome. Today? You better check and see if you still have your watch and wedding ring.
 
I have no patience with professionals that have placed themselves on a pinnacle. Is a doctor’s time more valuable than yours? How many appointments have you had that you were told to show up 15 minutes early, and then wait 2 hours past your appointment time? Oh, and if you’re late, they will charge you $50. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers…it seems like they all believe they are doing you a favor to take your money. Deadlines and promises might as well be punchlines in a joke. This is why we have become a litigious society. At one time, if you shook a man’s hand, you could count on an outcome. Today? You better check and see if you still have your watch and wedding ring.
Lots of truth in that post.
 
I have no patience with professionals that have placed themselves on a pinnacle. Is a doctor’s time more valuable than yours? How many appointments have you had that you were told to show up 15 minutes early, and then wait 2 hours past your appointment time? Oh, and if you’re late, they will charge you $50. Doctors, lawyers, architects, engineers…it seems like they all believe they are doing you a favor to take your money. Deadlines and promises might as well be punchlines in a joke. This is why we have become a litigious society. At one time, if you shook a man’s hand, you could count on an outcome. Today? You better check and see if you still have your watch and wedding ring.
Amen!!
 
The OP turned over his property to the GS with the expectation of service rendered (with the expectation of a "reasonable" amount of time for services to be completed). He did not voluntarily "give" the GS his property. There is a difference. There is a binding business contract and the GS is bound to perform these services within a reasonable amount of time or the OP now becomes deprived of his property. It "IS" against the law. I would suggest as others have to contact the GS's local law enforcement to at least document his complaint and acquire a case number. He could go further to request a "welfare check" on this individual as well. And if contact is made, the local PD could advise the subject to contact the complainant. This way, the OP now has proof of contact and should be no reason why the GS would be dodging the Op's communications. We're not talking about the repair of a toaster, we are talking about firearm components. Perhaps even a mailed letterhead from an attorney's office would help things along as well.
Maybe but nothing unlawful has occurred. Hate to take something to court and wind up finding out that his wife had covid and was deathly ill. The judge would just give you the stink eye. A registered letter wouldn't hurt.
 
Funny that NOBODY really knows the whole story. The man in question has been "accused" of being a low life or even worse. Just like politics.
You make an accusation and that's it. Guilty till proven innocent beyond a reasonable doubt. :( And as far as his business reputation, in the toilet!!
And guilty on social media, that's what this forum is isn't it?? :rolleyes:
Me? I'll wait for "the rest of the story".
 
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