How much Runout is acceptable ?

[BoydAllen]

After a while, a thread is being revisited by readers who just use the original title as a marker. If you are getting responses that you find helpful, let 'er run till they run out.

 

[short range]

Thanks Boyd

 

[camac]

This thread has covered some great topics that in my opinion could be stickied in their relevant places and therefore has had a lot of input and readers.

1) Wind, charts, flags and Mirage. This is a great topic that needs its own thread (or page on the website) to draw in as many experts as possible who might otherwise skip over "runout"
2) Bags and firing techniques similar.
3) The original runout topic also always draws 1000 plus reads every time it is posted.

These three topics are great and you have had a few very experienced people stay on this post which is great but you might get a wider variety of answers (good and bad) by posting new threads under the correct topics - A plea to the forum boss to sticky them migh help??

 

[short range]

Thanks cam, I feel very fortunate that several experienced people have stayed with this thread. I've received alot of helpful information. I'm not sure what you mean by : A plea to the forum boss to "sticky" them. I'm not familiar with some of the forum words that are used. As I shoot more, I'm sure I will want more info on these topics, so I'm sure I will start new threads. So are you saying that you think I should have started a new thread as the topics changed , or do you think like Boyd, that I should let the thread continue like it has ? Then also start seperate threads on the topics ? I just think by doing both it gets kind of redundent and time consuming. I know by starting new threads , I will draw more people that are interested in that topic.

 

[camac]

I was waffling a bit. You are/everyone is getting great info out of this at the moment so I would let it run like Boyd said. Then reinvigorate it after it dies by starting another on the relevant topic - you will bring in some more experience.
Try not to run same idea in two separate threads at same time.

Sticky means they get stuck to top of page and stay there (don't roll off the bottom). I just think a few of these topics covered are the "essentials" of good shooting and worth sticking if the question is posted correctly.

 

[short range]

Hi Cam, Thanks for the explanation of :"sticky". Do you think I should ask forum boss to stick the thread to the top, or since you have been around the forum longer than me, would you like to do it ?

 

[short range]

I went to the range today, I shot with the rear bag two inches from the butt for the first time, it reduced the rifle jump by a lot. I didn't try using the bounce sheets, because, now the scope comes back and lightly touches my eyebrow, so I think it might hit my eyebrow fairly hard if I use the bounce sheets. I don't think that I had any more rifle cant by moving the rear rest. With less rifle jump, it made it much faster lineing up the next shot. I shot my smallest 5 shot group to date: .109" before that, it was : .113". I still got work to do, but I'm slowly getting there. the other three 5 shot groups were : .168", .248", .325" I pulled a shot on the .325" group, sometimes I still jurk the trigger instead if squeezing it.

 

[camac]

Hi Cam, Thanks for the explanation of :"sticky". Do you think I should ask forum boss to stick the thread to the top, or since you have been around the forum longer than me, would you like to do it ?

I haven't been around this forum too along either - Just because I think they should be stickied doesn't mean they will but I am happy to try one - would carry more weight with one of the site contibutors etc. Most of the really fundamental questions get asked by the newer shooters and get answered by the big contributors so it would be a bit back to front for one of the site contibutors to start.

Which one do you think is most relevant to everybody? In my mind wind has the biggest effect on all shooters. Using wind charts and reading flags, grass, trees and mirage is fundamental to shooting well at almost any distance. It is also hard to find information on this and it normally takes a lot of field practice to learn to read them

 

[short range]

Hi cam, I think those are the topics that most newer shooters would want info about.

 

[short range]

I went to the range again today, it's only 15 minutes from my house, my groups are getting more consistant now. I shot four 5 shot groups : .147", .178", .191", .303". I always seem to have that one shot that I pull away from the others in one group. I also checked the bullet runout on 33 rounds that have been reloaded several times, seven were .002, the rest were under .002, and several were under .001. so the bullet runout is staying at acceptable measurements.

 

[LHSmith]

Shortrange- are you shooting sighters before attempting your record groups. Your accuracy seems to fade the more you shoot. What's your cleaning regimen? coating your bullets?
There is nothing wrong with holding your head back farther, if you start getting "vignetting" (a black ring ), just center it with the scopes sight picture......it actually helps minimize parallax, only downside you loose some field -of-view.

 

[aJR]

IN my Gun I can shoot the difference when going from 2 thou to 3 thou .. Nothing changes from zero to .002,but that does not stop me from making sure that every record round has less than a .001 where i check it..JR..Jeff Rogers

 

[short range]

Hi Lhsmith, I only shoot two shoots to foul the clean barrel before I start shooting my record groups. the fouling shots always go in their same relative spots minus wind, the first shot is high and left, and the second shot is about half way between that shot and being right on target. I only clean the barrel every other time that I go to the range, about every 44 rounds or so. The last couple times that I listed my group sizes, they were from smallest to largest, not in group order. Today's group # order is:
group #1 .303" , #2 .191", #3 .147", #4 .178" the day before, group #3 was the worst and Group #4 second worst

 

[short range]

Hi aJR, Thanks for your input. My bullets are hard into the lands, so I'm not sure how much different .002 bullet runout will shoot. I stopped testing that, because several people told me that untill I can learn to read the wind, my tests won't be accurate, so now I'm starting to learn how to read wind flags. I did hear that some other shooters only use rounds with .001 or less bullet runout for matches, and some say it doesn't matter as much as wind and mirage.

 

[LHSmith]

What about sighters? With a rig like yours you really should clean after every outing.

 

[camac]

Short range - to have 1 in 20 bullets stray by an extra .1-.2 inch is excellent shooting. Are your fliers by any chance horizontal?? i.e. are you just missing 1 in 20 wind calls by 1-2mph??? If so you are doing exceptionally well - don't sweat it.
What everyone was portraying in the earlier discussions is now plain as day in your groups. You cannot judge runout on one group alone as wind, shooter or load can throw one group out even if you are an expert marksman.
You are shooting well enough now to make comparisons just don't judge anything on one group alone. 2-3 thou runout is obviously still shooting well in your rifle though.
To get smaller group sizes than this you really need to "sweat" all the little details now. Super tight groups can only come from the sum of all the little things. You will still see the odd larger group (due to wind or loading error, or bad shot etc) - everyone has them but hopefully as you learn more, your average comes down and so does your "best group" sizes.
2-3 thou runout is OK but not perfect - you can continue to look at improving that, but also all the other little load tuning details.

 

[short range]

Lhsmith, I use the first two fouling shots as sighters, that's probably not the best way to do it, but with no wind, the two fouling shot are going in almost exactly the same places every time, so I just use them as sighters for the wind. I'm just been trying to conserve ammo, the same thing goes for cleaning every other time. I will start cleaning after every outing and see if it makes a difference. It seemed like it did matter, because sometime the forth group on the second outing is as good as some of my smaller groups on the first outing.

 

[short range]

Thanks cam, My fliers are almost always a little high and to the left, or a little high and to the right, so I'm not sure if I'm mis-judging the the wind, or if they're just bad shots. As I stated above, now my bullet runout are all .002 and under, with most being in the .001 range. How much runout do you use for your record groups ?

 

[LHSmith]

Many short range BR competitors pay no attention to their where their sighter(s) go, they shoot them in the dirt backstop. Some barrels take no foulers, others 1 or 2. If your main goal is tiny groups, use a target that has a sighter target below the record target. The sighter lets you test conditions without ruining a group.
The foulers and sighters also heat up the barrel, another kind of "conditioning" to ensure shot to shot consistantly. If you are waiting 5 minutes or longer between shots for one group, you probably have lost that "conditioning" and the shot may go out..... the longer the interval the more likely it will.
Also you could test your skills on a score target, where the main objective is to hit a tiny dot on 5 separate target bulls.Here also a sighter target is used.
Since you are already shooting small , you're agging in the low 2's, determine a standard by which you can gauge your progress.....i.e target type, # of shots/ group (I would use 5) # of groups / outing range, (again I would use 5)
Use a log book and record data.
It may sound illogical, but try to shoot when there is a wind( from one direction and steady speed... with no gusting and not switching.
Very little can be learned from only shooting only when the tails are limp.

 

[short range]

I wasn't aware of the 5 minute conditioning, I was always told it's better to try to keep the barrel cool as possible, and not let it get too hot, that the barrel starts to lose accuracy, I know your talking about just keeping the barrel warm, quite often it's longer than 5 minutes between shots ( cease fires for changing targets, or just talking ) I was shooting four 3 shot groups until It was suggested that I start shooting 5 shot groups, so lately I've been shooting four 5 shot groups, also as suggested, I started using the Official Benchrest 100 yard targets that I printed from this forum. I have been entering my info into a log since I began shooting this rifle. Why do you suggest that I shoot five 5 shot groups instead of four 5 shot groups ? I have been shooting with differing wind conditions to help learn shooting with the flags. Quite often there is a swirling wind where I shoot, three flag all going in different directions, so it seems to work best going off the flag that shows the most wind, unless it's the closest flag, than I go off one of the other flags. I only have three flags, I set them at about 25, 45, 75 yards.