How much Runout is acceptable ?

[camac]

Thanks Mike (again), The picture is a little clearer now. Both 6BR rounds have bullet tip fairly concentric with shoulder and base but neck and bullet bend out and back a little in between . A bit like a "banana" as you suggested. Thanks for putting the figures up, hopefully it will help a few "interpret" the results they are seeing with both types of measuring devices.

 

[Mikem]

Just in case this thread ever gets read by someone, I would like it to end on an up beat.
In my opinion, the Hornady run-out tool works, and is well made, and the V-Block units I have seen also work quite well for detecting bullet run-out. You just need to know there's no comparison of numbers between the two, as they take there readings in different ways, so there accuracy and usefulness to the reloaded is all in the interpretation of its readings, with the understanding of how your tool arrived at them.

So yes both types of tools will read bullet run-out, so is it important to know? I think so, but it may depend on the type of shooting you do, and how anal you are about it. Can you do anything about your run-out? Yes you can, some may be in your dies, or there setup and some may be in your brass. And they do make handy but simple tools to help remove run-out.

One last thought, today I tested several factory new Federal Gold Metal Match 308s with 155g SMK (# GM-308 M3 lot # 2-21N298) and on both types of tools, there run-out was between .002 and .0065 when taken on the bullet, just above the case neck. So do you really need to worry about run-out, I guess thats up to you.
Mike.

 

[Shootingjunkie]

Just in case this thread ever gets read by someone, I would like it to end on an up beat.
In my opinion, the Hornady run-out tool works, and is well made, and the V-Block units I have seen also work quite well for detecting bullet run-out. You just need to know there's no comparison of numbers between the two, as they take there readings in different ways, so there accuracy and usefulness to the reloaded is all in the interpretation of its readings, with the understanding of how your tool arrived at them.

So yes both types of tools will read bullet run-out, so is it important to know? I think so, but it may depend on the type of shooting you do, and how anal you are about it. Can you do anything about your run-out? Yes you can, some may be in your dies, or there setup and some may be in your brass. And they do make handy but simple tools to help remove run-out.

One last thought, today I tested several factory new Federal Gold Metal Match 308s with 155g SMK (# GM-308 M3 lot # 2-21N298) and on both types of tools, there run-out was between .002 and .0065 when taken on the bullet, just above the case neck. So do you really need to worry about run-out, I guess thats up to you.
Mike.

I'm a frequent reader but first time poster and this was the best (by far), most pleasant and helpful thread I've ever read (on any shooting topic). Thanx all!!!

 

[Red lake Gunner]

Not to minimize all the rhetoric on runout but I don't see anyone suggest the simple act of orientation of the bullet. If you are measuring runout it is a simple procedure to mark the high point with felt tip and when lshooting, chamber the cartridges the same way eg: marked side up. It does eliminate most of the runout influence

 

[Mozella]

......... snip..................
IMHO -Any shooting done sans flags, renders useless target info.

My intent is not to be argumentative, but I've heard this old saw many times before and nobody can explain to me why shooting in the wind is a good thing.

I mostly compete in 600 yd F-Class and BR matches. The majority of the competitors show up with a gun and load recipe good enough to win. Without a doubt, the winner is nearly always the guy who read the wind the best on that particular day. It's not always the same guy since we all have good days and bad days. But it's quite clear that a tiny misjudgement in the wind produces a much larger error at the target than does a large defect in bullet run-out, primer brand, or meplat pointing, to name a couple of areas where we shooters tend to fixate on. Some days you catch the wind variables better than the other guys and when you do it's a good bet that you'll go home with the gold. The fact that the winner doesn't necessarily match his good performance two weeks later, tells me that the good guys are not perfect, at least where I shoot. Perhaps at the World Championships things are different and the phase of the moon is the dominate variable, but my matches are much further down the food chain of the shooting sports.

Said another way, if wind plays such a big part in dispersion, especially compared with other variables, and if the average shooter is constantly proving that he isn't perfect at reading the wind (I put myself firmly in that category), then how can anyone justify doing load work-up in the wind? Typically we're searching for really tiny improvements in performance, perhaps by changing the charge weight by a couple of tenths of a grain or by changing the seating depth by a few thousandths of an inch. The results of these tiny changes manifest themselves in equally tiny (or sometimes even smaller) differences in Group Size, Group Height, and Mean Radius.

Of course, if your wind reading skills are perfect, congratulations. But in that case you probably aren't spending time on this forum because you're too busy polishing your World Champion trophies.

If, like most shooters, a person can't rely on making a perfect wind call, why not get up early and test in zero wind conditions? That's what I do. When the wind indicators show the very slightest breeze, I cease testing and either go home, begin a wind reading training session, or break out my AK-47.

I'm all set to fine tune a competition recipe for next weekend, but tomorrow is supposed to have a few mph of wind in the morning, so I'm holding off until Tuesday. That's because although my wind reading skills are consistently getting better, they are far from perfect.

By the way the "you" I use in this post is the generic "you", meaning a fellow shooter, not any particular person participating in this thread.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

My intent is not to be argumentative, but I've heard this old saw many times before and nobody can explain to me why shooting in the wind is a good thing.

I mostly compete in 600 yd F-Class and BR matches. The majority of the competitors show up with a gun and load recipe good enough to win. Without a doubt, the winner is nearly always the guy who read the wind the best on that particular day. It's not always the same guy since we all have good days and bad days. But it's quite clear that a tiny misjudgement in the wind produces a much larger error at the target than does a large defect in bullet run-out, primer brand, or meplat pointing, to name a couple of areas where we shooters tend to fixate on. Some days you catch the wind variables better than the other guys and when you do it's a good bet that you'll go home with the gold. The fact that the winner doesn't necessarily match his good performance two weeks later, tells me that the good guys are not perfect, at least where I shoot. Perhaps at the World Championships things are different and the phase of the moon is the dominate variable, but my matches are much further down the food chain of the shooting sports.

Said another way, if wind plays such a big part in dispersion, especially compared with other variables, and if the average shooter is constantly proving that he isn't perfect at reading the wind (I put myself firmly in that category), then how can anyone justify doing load work-up in the wind? Typically we're searching for really tiny improvements in performance, perhaps by changing the charge weight by a couple of tenths of a grain or by changing the seating depth by a few thousandths of an inch. The results of these tiny changes manifest themselves in equally tiny (or sometimes even smaller) differences in Group Size, Group Height, and Mean Radius.

Of course, if your wind reading skills are perfect, congratulations. But in that case you probably aren't spending time on this forum because you're too busy polishing your World Champion trophies.

If, like most shooters, a person can't rely on making a perfect wind call, why not get up early and test in zero wind conditions? That's what I do. When the wind indicators show the very slightest breeze, I cease testing and either go home, begin a wind reading training session, or break out my AK-47.

I'm all set to fine tune a competition recipe for next weekend, but tomorrow is supposed to have a few mph of wind in the morning, so I'm holding off until Tuesday. That's because although my wind reading skills are consistently getting better, they are far from perfect.

By the way the "you" I use in this post is the generic "you", meaning a fellow shooter, not any particular person participating in this thread.

When you watch a field of windflags in what most would call "zero wind" youll still see flag tails twitch and even see the wind direction swap. So without flags even on a zero wind day its a waste of time. Im not talking about like hunting rifles im talking about pure accuracy. Go to the super shoot and see how many cusswords you hear on the first relay when the flags dont even twitch but change color

 

[USMCDOC]

When you watch a field of windflags in what most would call "zero wind" youll still see flag tails twitch and even see the wind direction swap. So without flags even on a zero wind day its a waste of time. Im not talking about like hunting rifles im talking about pure accuracy. Go to the super shoot and see how many cusswords you hear on the first relay when the flags dont even twitch but change color

There never ain't nothin'!

 

[Mozella]

............. snip.........the flags dont even twitch but change color

OK.......... I'll bite. What exactly is the proper adjustment when "the flags don't even twitch but change color"?

 

[BoydAllen]

Some years ago, before the first match of the morning, I was standing beside Eunice Berger, who went on to win the three gun. There was nothing moving on the range, which prompted my remark that it looked like it would be a trigger pulling contest. She replied that I should not kid myself, that there were things out there that would move a bullet that the flags were not showing, and that there was no mirage, and she shot mirage. (On that range the width of the range and the steepness and height of the side berms had the floor of the range in shadow at that time of day.) After she said that, I asked her if that she would prefer a light steady condition to what we were looking at, and she said that she would. When you are competing with equipment that is capable of teen aggs, stuff like this matters. If you are sighting in your deer rifle it does not.

Some time back Wilbur Harris wrote that it is funny how the simple act of putting out a few wind flags can make the wind start to blow. People who have no experience with wind flags and who do not use them when they practice may be nice folks and have lots of skill, but they are totally clueless when it comes to this....totally. All of the you would thinks and it seems to mes in the world won't tell you what a couple of wind flags will.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Wilbur used to call it "morning boogers"

OK.......... I'll bite. What exactly is the proper adjustment when "the flags don't even twitch but change color"?

The proper adjustment is be very wary. Go to a match with 100+ guns capable of shooting a teen agg and see all the .500's shot in zero conditions and youll see what i mean. Ive been bit plenty of times in those trigger pulling contests enough that ill wait 6mins to see if i can get the wind to blow some.