Thanks cam for the chart, that's helpful. I did contact Al, and he said the velocity is about 2.950 feet per second. I'll try shooting acouple sighters in different wing conditions next time I shoot and record the effects. Is there good articles on this forum about reading the wind ? I just got a level mounted to my scope, and I did notice that a little can't moves your point of impact more that I thaught it would at 100 yards.
How much Runout is acceptable ?
- Thread starter short range
- Start date
Hi whiskey08, I hope get it figured out, it's too bad that didn't work for you.
Shortrange: My advice to sell the Sinclair gauge was an attempt to be sarcastic. Go to: "Rifleman's Journal: Reloading" website Sept. '09 blog by German Salazar.....he tests several seaters for run-out. He also has several other blogs on reloading on that site that may answer your questions.
Caldwell front bags are poorly made and you will get better results with a Protector front bag. I like cordura and slicked-up with good silicone spray. Also do a search on how to properly fill bags.....it also is critical to accuracy.
I assume you are "holding" the rifle for each shot as opposed to shooting "free-recoil" where only your finger touches the rifle. Try to maintain the same exact position for each shot and keep your cheek pressure to an absolute minimum----preferably not even touching the stock.
As you become more comfortable "reading" the wind, place a "mirage board" ( do a search) next to the target. Learn to monitor this closely and this will help reconcile why some shots didn't agree with the wind chart.
Ultimately, you want to develop the ability to shoot both eyes open so that you can monitor the flags as you shoot.
I was referring to the cost of the dial gauge itself, not the cost of the Sinclair fixture.
Also, get away from those orange dots.... they are a poor choice for precision shooting ...you are making it harder than it is by trying to center the reticle in the middle of an ill-defined target.....BTW I trust your not shooting your POA.
Caldwell front bags are poorly made and you will get better results with a Protector front bag. I like cordura and slicked-up with good silicone spray. Also do a search on how to properly fill bags.....it also is critical to accuracy.
I assume you are "holding" the rifle for each shot as opposed to shooting "free-recoil" where only your finger touches the rifle. Try to maintain the same exact position for each shot and keep your cheek pressure to an absolute minimum----preferably not even touching the stock.
As you become more comfortable "reading" the wind, place a "mirage board" ( do a search) next to the target. Learn to monitor this closely and this will help reconcile why some shots didn't agree with the wind chart.
Ultimately, you want to develop the ability to shoot both eyes open so that you can monitor the flags as you shoot.
I was referring to the cost of the dial gauge itself, not the cost of the Sinclair fixture.
Also, get away from those orange dots.... they are a poor choice for precision shooting ...you are making it harder than it is by trying to center the reticle in the middle of an ill-defined target.....BTW I trust your not shooting your POA.
Don't find much under mirage board on the search. What is it?
Take a white sheet of paper-8 " X 11" is a common size ( or cardboard, aluminum sheet, corrugated plastic, etc) and using black electrical tape make alternating rows of black and white stripes( approx. 3/4 wide) . Place this next to your target . The stripes should be oriented horizontal. It will make mirage easier to see and allow you to read which direction it is traveling. At the very least, it will aid you in learning when not to shoot when it is running heavy....the best shooters, however, learn how to use it to their advantage. A mirage board may help explain some of those shots that went "out" of group. It will demonstrate that the target bull is not necessarily where it appears to be as you are viewing it through your scope.
Hi Lhsmith, Thanks for the info. I will check out the protector front bags, is cordura a brand of bags ? I do shoot with "free recoil" Al told me how to shoot this rifle when I bought it. He told me to place my hand on a sand bag, and just lay my thumb on the stock, and just barely lay my cheek on the stock, and have my shoulder about three inches back off the stock. I just started shooting with both eyes open last week, and that seemed to tighten my groups a little. I also put a level on my scope for cant, I was suprised to see that a little cant can make a big difference even at 100 yards. I changed to the Official 100 meter bench rest targets from National Bench Rest Association, that I printed from this site, they did help make my groups smaller, today I shot four five shot groups: .113", .153", .264",.181", they are the best five shot groups that I have shot in one day, they were the only groups that I shot today.
Boyd and Lhsmith, thanks for the info on the mirage boards and I watched the video, I think judging mirage and will take awhile to learn. I started using flags last week, I just made three flags, placed at 20, 45, 65 yards, I was really suprised to see that the wind can be blowing in three differend direction with one flag having an updraft of about 45 degrees above horizonal, at the same time in 100 yards. Now I"m begining to understand why it's still hard to shoot one holers even with these precision rifles.
Cordura is a woven nylon material that is used with leather in sandbag construction. Same stuff used to make sneakers and boots. All- leather bags are still in favor with some shooters, and work quite well with talcum powder....until it gets damp.
You can use a good grade of silicone spray on cordura (let it dry before using) or some use slightly used anti-static sheets used in clothes dryers to provide a "smooth as glass" action in the bags. Not sure what method Caldwell uses to affix the bag to it's top, but I'm pretty sure a call to Protektor will get you want you need. Some guys cut off the tabs (used for securing to top) and simply glue the bag to the rest with silicone caulk. Front bags usually only cost around $15. Again it is crucial you pack the bag to the right firmness. Judging by the groups you're getting, the Caldwell bag seems to be the right hardness. When you get bored shooting those tiny groups you can resort to shooting flies
....headshots only of course.
You can use a good grade of silicone spray on cordura (let it dry before using) or some use slightly used anti-static sheets used in clothes dryers to provide a "smooth as glass" action in the bags. Not sure what method Caldwell uses to affix the bag to it's top, but I'm pretty sure a call to Protektor will get you want you need. Some guys cut off the tabs (used for securing to top) and simply glue the bag to the rest with silicone caulk. Front bags usually only cost around $15. Again it is crucial you pack the bag to the right firmness. Judging by the groups you're getting, the Caldwell bag seems to be the right hardness. When you get bored shooting those tiny groups you can resort to shooting flies
....headshots only of course.The caldwell system uses velcro ties around rest top. They can be a bit tricky to fit well and do give a bit. It is far better to glue or strap them down as LH suggested (unless you are regularly changing bags which is a plus of the velcro ties). I was watching a guy using one the other day and he would slide his rifle forward to the stop and then rock it back again so it was a bit more solid on the back of the top.- he shot pretty well with it too. Great to see those group sizes. Good stuff.
Does Protektor make a cordura bag ? If they are pretty cheap like you say, I should get one and give it a try. Al told me about how full my front bag should be, I showed it to him when I bought the rifle, he said that I had too much heavy sand in it. I had to mess with it for awhile, to get it right. It does move with the velco, so I can try using silicone caulk. Do people just rub the bags and stock with the Bounce sheets ? I use them to wipe my powder scale and digital dispenser to eliminate static. I wasn't bragging about the groups by any means, I know they won't win any competitions, but with everyones input from the forum, they are getting better. I've learned a lot of very helpful things in the last couple months.
Protektor does cordura. The Bounce sheets are laid in both bags with the stock riding on them during actual shooting. Do a search on sand for bags. I don't like heavy sand in the front bag, it tends to pack too tight.....I use a mix of regular sand and "parakeet gravel" .....you may get by with screening regular sand and only using the coarse granules in the front bag. It may also be helpful to place support under your shooting hand when shooting free recoil....I use a small sandbag called an elbow bag. Try a folded towel first to see if it helps.
Reading an articile about sand bags, I realized the I wasn't resting my stock on the rear bag in the right place, I was resting the stock on the rear bag right behind the the rear round part of the pistol grip. I should have known better, that's why I'm getting rifle jump. The articile stated to put the rear bag so there is at least one inch of the stock past the rear of the bag. I also found out that I have too much sand in my rear bag, it's hard as a rock.
Isn't it easier to get rifle cant with the bag so far back on the stock ? How full do you have your rear bag ? I use a sand bag to support my shooting hand.
Isn't it easier to get rifle cant with the bag so far back on the stock ? How full do you have your rear bag ? I use a sand bag to support my shooting hand.
I keep the rear of the rear bag about 2" from the butt. If your up so close to the "pistol grip" area you will indeed get horrific bag upset. I would think the bullet would have long left the barrel, so it may still group, but you are pounding the heck out of your bags, making the next shot a tedious task to get back on track.
Fill the base of the rear bag until it is firm. If it is beginning to bulge at places.....you overfilled. The bottom of the bag should look flat....not rounded. The base is where I use heavy sand. I use the course regular sand mix I described above in the rear bag ears also.
Fill to the same manner as the base. Make sure the bottom of the stock (probably has a 3/8 or wider flat) does not bottom in the rear bag......the stock should only contact the "V" part of the ears. After doing this, then you rely on trial and error as far as tweaking the firmness of the bags.
Some bags, Caldwell comes to mind, are lacking in proper material and construction, and you will never get them to retain a consistent shape.This is where Edgewood, and the higher -end Protektor products shine....they hold their shape due to superior stitching and use of quality leather and cordura.
After several sessions, the sand may settle in the ears, and you might have to add more.....don't glue the filler hole shut. When you shoot BR targets, most hang them level...then simply adjust the leveling feet so the crosshairs are level with the outside scoring boundary. Once you do this, that 3" front bag and rear bag should allow it to track well enough to maintain level. If not, you've got bag issues, or crosshairs not level with fore-end, aka -cant.
Also, depending on the shape of the rear bag, spinning it 180 ( using it "backwards") may give better results. And make sure the front rest stop (if you have one) is not made out of hard material.
Fill the base of the rear bag until it is firm. If it is beginning to bulge at places.....you overfilled. The bottom of the bag should look flat....not rounded. The base is where I use heavy sand. I use the course regular sand mix I described above in the rear bag ears also.
Fill to the same manner as the base. Make sure the bottom of the stock (probably has a 3/8 or wider flat) does not bottom in the rear bag......the stock should only contact the "V" part of the ears. After doing this, then you rely on trial and error as far as tweaking the firmness of the bags.
Some bags, Caldwell comes to mind, are lacking in proper material and construction, and you will never get them to retain a consistent shape.This is where Edgewood, and the higher -end Protektor products shine....they hold their shape due to superior stitching and use of quality leather and cordura.
After several sessions, the sand may settle in the ears, and you might have to add more.....don't glue the filler hole shut. When you shoot BR targets, most hang them level...then simply adjust the leveling feet so the crosshairs are level with the outside scoring boundary. Once you do this, that 3" front bag and rear bag should allow it to track well enough to maintain level. If not, you've got bag issues, or crosshairs not level with fore-end, aka -cant.
Also, depending on the shape of the rear bag, spinning it 180 ( using it "backwards") may give better results. And make sure the front rest stop (if you have one) is not made out of hard material.
LHsmith, Thanks for the info. I will try the things you suggested, I think I need more sand in the ears of the rear rest, and useing it backwards sounds like a good Idea.They way I was placeing my rear bags and having the rifle jump, it is a pain to get back on target, I think the new way will be much better. The ears on my rear bag are only about one inch or so high, What size ears are best ? My front rest stop is a bolt with a fairly soft plastic or harder rubber cap that covers about 1 1/2 inches of the top of the bolt.
Thanks Boyd, My rifle has a McMillan Benchrest stock so it doesn't have a cheekpiece. What back rest do you think is the best to use ? How full do you fill your bags,and ears? What sand do you fill them with ? Do you put anything on them to make the stock slide easily ?
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I have a couple of rear bags. The one that I have used the most is and Edgewood with medium Cordura ears and three stitches between them. When I ordered it, on Speedy's advice, I had Jack put a piece of heavy leather under the ears, inside the main bag. Mine is an earlier design with the main chamber mostly leather except for a panel a the front that is about 4" by 5" that has the label in its center. I think that the current designs are different, with Cordura on the whole top and front, which may be better. The main chamber in mine is filled with garnet sand, a mixture of 40 and 80 grit that I bought from a local sandblasting supplier. The ears are filled with ordinary silica sand, about 40 grit I would guess. At one point I over filled the base and high centered it. To solve this problem I put several strips of masking tape down each side on the bottom, raising it on its edges. Later I removed some sand. Although I have not done it in a while, I have tried Sailcote http://www.intensitysails.com/mcsa6ozdrylu.html and found that it makes things really slick, when combined with clear stock tape. My front bag has is one of the cloth over leather that Dave Dohrman sold. It and a matching rear bag have yet to be tried at the range. The next great experiment, bag wise, will be putting used drier sheets between the stock and bags. I hear very good things about this method of friction reduction and since my wife produces an unending stream of the used sheets, it would be a very good thing it they work as well as reported.
Hi Boyd, It sounds like a bag with the medium cordura bag and ears and using the bounce sheets sounds like a good solution. I think first I will try my bag with the bounce sheets on both the front and rear rest to see how that works, but I think the taller ears will help stablize the rifle butt in the rear bag. I wonder as the subject changes in the course of these threads, as in this, if I shouldn't start a new threat to continue the change of subject ? I know for the most part I'm the one that fueled the changes in the subject matter, but that is something that I don't like as I read other threads, that they get away from the original subject, so I have to read through a bunch of info that I might not be interested in. What are your thaughts on that?
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