Hard time choosing a barrel & chamber reamer: long range M14 clone

[tonyben]

Thanks! Was it Nez?

Tony.
[/quote]

Sorry but no. even though our good Mr. Nez is a fine shot with his M14 and a Retired Air Force Veteran he is not on any of the Major Military teams. It was Captain Freeman.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. Work has been hell this last year so I haven't followed who's won what. Nez is the one that recommended me the 1:12 and I know he's a bench crossover shooter (at least that's my understanding), so I figured I'd ask the same question here. I've seen some of his groups and they are amazing, to say the least.

Tony.

 

[Rtheurer]

THAT SIR IS A DREAM, AND A DAMNED EXPENSIVE ONE AT THAT.

high power is a single discipline that has no relationship to real life shooting.
(you do not get single load, longer than mag length ammo in the field, no hard back shooting "jacket", no massive shooting glove.)

i do not beleive ar-10's are "issue" rifles for high power competition...

They can still get it done over the AR 10 and AR 15's Just takes a whole lot of work.
RussT

Well SIR
You would believe wrong. The AR 10 platform IS approved for Service rifle comps via NRA. So the AMU has deployed its iron sight SERVICE RIFLE AR10 (SR25) at the Long Range Nationals and Interservice matches for several years now.

So I stand here IN the WAR Zone in Afganistan right now and see approx. a 30 to 1 ratio of EBR M14 battle rifles to SR25's. So while you talk about actual in the field use and assume i only shoot on a target range you are seriously wrong again. There are way more EBR's on every combat outposts than there ever was any AR10 based system. The EBR’s take a beating day in and out. They shoot well and provide a punch when needed. The days of poor bedding for field use are gone as the SAGE chassis cures that problem.

Dream or not.. its the facts.

RT
Sorry to the rest of you trying to get actuall information for the M14

 

[stool]

i have not shot hp for over 15 yrs.
at the time sr25's and ar10's were used in the field, but not allowed in matches as service rifles.
nice to see them wake up.
the sr25 was never a high volume rifle, but true ar10's were much higher in the sand wars. the newer 110 should make the numbers go up.

 

[davek]

I have shot the m14 over many years nmc at camp perry, and have used Hart, Obermeyer,Kreiger and douglass barrels shooting 168,175, 180 and 190g sierras using imr 4895,4064, reloader 15 and varget. All are good. The chamber is a m852, the twist rate is 1-10, The m14 is a good shooting servicerifle at 600yds and does very well at 1000yds too. Have fun and good luck with it. Davek.

 

[jameydan]

Tony,

You know enough about the platform to see there is a lot of mis-information and good information in this short thread. I will try to add some helpful info.

First off go for it! Just because some say it is "too hard" or "can not be done" does not mean you can not!

The Sage does come in a heavy barrel version now - you know that.
You can shoot the M14 and do well at 1000yds with it - others have done it and you may be able as well.
Moderate gas system mods should be made. I run a heavier spring, vented and bored gas plug and standard piston.
Get the rear sight tight - if you end up using irons
Get your prescription optimised - if you end up using irons

I suggest you do not set up your loaded round length at 2.80" That would never allow you to achieve full potential. The M852, M118, M118LR lots I have on hand all measure 2.810ish out to 2.830". I doubt you will need to load any rounds to battlefield specs on the 1000yd firing line, so load them long. With regard to 185 Bergers, I would strongly suggest that you have the rifle throated, or chambered, so that you are loading them out to 2.870 - 2.90" This will give you more powder capacity and more fps at sane pressures compared to loading them to mag length.

Regarding chamber reamers, I would be considering the 308 Palma Bisley chamber reamer. I started researching things in that direction, and I have some info suggesting that may be an ideal reamer for my application. Send me an email and I will send you some info on the reamers and copies of the reamer prints, then you can explore this route a little more. (The "M852" reamer has the loosest freebore - I would not use that one). This forum is a wealth of info and there are likely to be others offering good info about reamer choices. I am not an expert, and so far, I have just ended up with the chamber the gunsmith put in there.

Another bullet to seriously consider is the 168 Berger hybrid. When loaded to similar pressures, the drift is pretty dang close to the 185's at 1000yds. Had the 168 hybrid existed when I started down this road, I would have seriously worked up a load with it. However, I chose the 185 and it shoots so well I have not deviated from it. The 185 (I use the LRBT) has performed incredible in 4 different M1A barrels and 2 different rifles. You can not go wrong with it. (Talk to Nez about the 168 Berger hybrids.)

All of my barrels have been 1:11 twist, Bartlien, Obermeyers and kreigers. No stability issues with the 185 out of those 22" barrels. My 185 loads average 2500-2550 in those barrels, with brass lasting the usual 4-5 loadings. I use Winchester brass, CCIBR2 or Wolf primers, and 4064 powder. Some combos might work better, but I again choose not to waste time and barrel life chasing the unattainable "perfect load" when I have a great load. I have not experienced any temp stability issues with the IMR 4064 and my load. It has shot very well from 40 degrees upto 100+ degrees. Varget would likely be worth trying, if I had to pick another powder.

I usually swap out my barrels at the 3500-3700 rd mark, which may be a little early for a dedicated LR barrel, but my rifles always do double duty as XTC and LR rifles. So, with the extra beating the throat takes in the rapids, I end up swapping the barrels out sooner vs later.

Shooting the service rifle at 1000yds is not easy, but that is also why I enjoy it. I have shot a 445/450 Palma score with my M1A, several 195's and made HM rather easily with the M1A's. I have toyed around with the AR15 at LR as well, and just started playing with the AR10/M110 clone for LR. I can say that shooting the AR15 with 80's at 1000yds is the hardest shooting I have ever done, and I never held so hard as I did to shoot HM scores with that little rifle. I do not have enough experience behind the AR10 yet to say for sure, but when comparing all three, I am finding the M1A/M14 to be the easiest to shoot LR.

Have fun, really learn to read the wind and hold hard.

Jamey

 

[tonyben]

Thanks a lot, Jameydan! That was indeed very good info. My current LRB was chambered by Ted Brown with a Clymer M852 reamer. He chose the reamer for me since I was new to the game and I didn't know what I wanted. It's worked out well so far but it will be nice to pick the right reamer this time.

I should also state that I made a mistake in my original post. I won't shoot anything lighter than 168's in this gun. Maybe an occasional 150 or 155, but mostly 168's of any kind to 185 Bergers only. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that I'd be using 130's.

Tony.

 

[Grimstod]

Tony go for it. It wnll be a gun worth envying. 8)

I think you can hit a 1000 with this gun.
I would recommend a little longer barrel. 22 seams sorta short. Keeping the bullet supersonic to a 1000 is the big thing you have to tak into account in planning. 185s should do that. If your shooting a 1000 then don't even bother trying anything lighter then 175gr in 30cal. 7mm and 6.5 guys us lighter stiff but they can get higher BC out of there lighter bullets cause they are skinnier.

This build is something similar to what my brother used to take towel heads in Afghanistan at 1200. He doesn't have the gun anymore and wants to duplicate it cause he miss shooting it.

 

[jameydan]

I would recommend a little longer barrel. 22 seams sorta short. Keeping the bullet supersonic to a 1000 is the big thing you have to tak into account in planning. 185s should do that. If your shooting a 1000 then don't even bother trying anything lighter then 175gr in 30cal.

Grimstod - Unfortunately he is limited to a 22 inch barrel in order to conform to the Service Rifle requirements. Nonetheless, He can still get to 1000 supersonically with the 185 berger and the 168 Berger hybrid out of his 22 inch barrel - even at 0' ASL and 59 degrees.

Tony - I would also suggest to you that you shoot some Palma format matches in order to develop the skill and confidence to do it regularly at 1000yds. Shooting 800yds on the LR (long range) target is actually easier than shooting 600yds on the MR-1 (NRA 600yd target). This is because the same target is used at 800-900-1000yds in NRA matches and the MOA of the scoring rings is a little "gentler" at 800 when compared to the 600yd target. So, whenever you can, start with some Palma format matches and 800yd matches. You will get a better idea of your hold and rifle/ammo capability.
Team matches are another huge asset to speed up your learning curve. Seek them out when you can - you will not regret it.

Best,

 

[stool]

he is limited to nothing if you READ opening post....
his claim of modern is why i made my original post...

I'm building my dream rifle right now.
I'll eventually go with most likely a Night Force scope. I'd like it to be capable of ranges out to 1200yds.

So, in essence, I'm an iron sight service rifle shooter building a scoped modern day battle rifle.
Thanks,
Tony.

 

[rminut]

Thanks! Was it Nez?

Tony.
[/quote]

Sorry but no. even though our good Mr. Nez is a fine shot with his M14 and a Retired Air Force Veteran he is not on any of the Major Military teams. It was Captain Freeman.
[/quote]
Russ,
I thought Capt. Freeman was with the Army Reserve Team, along with you if i'm correct, and that the AMU was using all M110's? is there a shift going on or did the Capt. just like a M14 better? I heard the M110 were shooting far better than the old M14's, thanks for any info.

 

[Rtheurer]

YOu are correct on all acounts.
The ALL Army Reserve Team havnt been able to procure a proper budget to move into the M110 arena. So we are using what is available. After we dropped the 90gr 223 program the rusty ole lock got popped open to the Armory and they dug out all the NM M14's that had been built maybe 10 or 15 years ago.
There are a few guys onthe team that have built there own rifles and shoot them. ( M110)

So Captian Freeman ( The legend as we call him) had three choices. Shoot or Barrow his own M110 if he had one. Shoot his XTC rifle 223. or grab a NM14 off the truck and shoot it.

The AMU has a better accountant. They are shooting the M110 for some time now.

My personal Opinion on the M110 (for 1000 yards) is that they may shoot well and are a whole lot easier to keep shooting well. It has a 20" barrel two inches shorter than the M14. The sight radius is shorter than the M14 and if you have ever stuck that square post onto a 1000 yard target the more sight radius you have the better. We as a Team dont shoot 1000 yards very much. Only twice really. Inter Service Matches at Quantico and Camp Perry. XTC is the real mission along with training troops and most reciently the Squad Designated Markman (SDM). Which by the way shoots the M14 SAGE stock rifle. Or what ever they bring to training.
A couple of the team mates has spent alot of time over at the Rock Island Arsonal putting together the SDM rifles and Im quite amazed how much better they shoot in the Aluminum Chasiss. Even Down range where they get beat all to heck.
There are 5 of us on the team that shoot Long Range with the Palma Rifle and Any rifle. 3 of those five are on the National Long Range Team. One is even a Wind Coach/Staff.

RussT

 

[rminut]

Russ, thanks for the info. Stay safe over there and I hope to meet you someday at Perry.

 

[cdparker]

Tony-Something to give some thought to--Long ago and Far away-like in Virginia, the guys from the Virginia State Team did some testing of M14 Match Barrels. I seem to remember that Dick Whitting was part of this. If he is around, mayhaps he can chime in? The length of the tenon on the M14 is .670" which is fairly short. I believe that what they found was that the medium weight barrel actually shot better and more consistently than the heavy contour. Stainless shoots to it's potential quicker and easier than CM. Though once broken-in they are equally as accurate. Many years ago, The Army gunsmiths played around with true Bull barrels on the M14. They made them so fat that they had to build a special gas system as the barrel was so thick. Long story short--They didn't work well. The barrel was too heavy for the action. This may be why folks shooting the M14 at long range have a bit of a time getting their gun settled in. One of the things that I did when building Service Rifles was to use the McMillan stock in solid glass. It added quite a bit of weight to the build. I am sure that whatever chassis you use, your gun should weigh 12-13#.
Oh- I do have two Palma Individual Service rifle Medals from Perry with an M14. So I've been there-done that.
Craig

 

[Rtheurer]

tony
There you go. I believe that the good Mr Parker has a tone of experience in this area. You might want to pick his brain on said topic. Thanks Craig for adding to the discussion. Glad to have your insight.

I have only one comment to your post however. I dont mean this to discredit your information or anger you with this. so Please dont take this as a slight to you.
After testing hundreds of AR Barrels for the team on the machine rest it was found by our Gun builder that the Chrome Moly Barrels broke in faster and settled in faster than the Stainless barrels, While the Stainless would last or sustain just as long or longer than the Chrome moly barrels. Just the opposite of what you mentioned in your post. This is Datat take off the Machine rest and over a period of three years or so.

Any way sorry to contradict what you have to say. I have alot of respect for you and what you have accomplished.
Yours in Marksmanship.
RussT

 

[cdparker]

Russ- The thing that you should be aware of is that my information comes from the 80's and 90's. Gene Barnett turned out a huge bunch of Douglas barrels in CM for the Guard team and a bunch of Civilians. I used many of them keeping service rifles refurbished and in the building of new guns. I still have some of "Geneseo" take-offs in my shop. I have shot out Krieger's and Obermeyer's. Most of them were in CM. The information that I got on barrel steels came from authoritative sources from that era. The best barrel that I ever shot was a tight bore Obermeyer in CM. I took it off when it read 4. Thank you for updating this "Geezer" from Upper Slobovia as Jim Cloward used to refer to us. One of the best ever M14 shooters is my friend Al Ewing. He would bring the USAR team up here to shoot our Regionals. What a great bunch of guys. There I go rambling on-----.
Craig

 

[rminut]

Craig,
This is little off the subject, but it might motivate the original poster to make it to Camp Perry, but can you break down the classifications for long range. There is Palma, service rifle, and any rifle? I"m asking because I don't think the service rifles compete against the bolt guns for the Palma 20 right?

Also, Craig what bullet weight did you shoot at 1K in your M1A's?

thanks,

 

[cdparker]

When I was shooting the Palma individual match there were two divisions-- Division "A" was the Palma Rifle and division "B" was Service Rifle. There was no shoot off, at least not in the SR division. It's been a while. I got the one in '93 with a score of 433, If I remember correctly. The thing that I was proudest of was that I was only two points behind Billy Atkins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTn47KLQx0E
The bullet that I used was a 176 gr. Delta Bullet made by Rick Mulhern. It was a VLD and shot wonderful. Since he quit making them we all went to the 175 Sierra. I think that if I were doing it today, I'd try one of the long range Berger's in 168/175. The 22" barrel is too short for the 155 or 185 gr Berger's for that distance. I used my combat front sight that had been cut down to 3 clicks up for 100 yds. Most of the High Master shooters used a combat front sight because they were all older guys.
It was about that time when The Marines were still shooting M14's that they won EVERYTHING in Army week. USAMU shooter Ken Gill was the first one to win the Service Rifle Championship with an M16. I saw him last year at the VA. He is in Fairbanks at Ft. Wainwright.

 

[tonyben]

WOW! It's been a few days sine I poked my head in on the forum. Thanks again for the information. I talked to Kreiger and they recommended a 1:11" twist barrel. I'm actually glad someone mentioned the benefits of heavy versus medium weight barrels. So if I get this straight, with a modern chassis system, I may not benefit from a heavy barrel; correct?

Also, to restate what I intend to shoot, I intend to shoot 168' Berger hybrids and SMK's seated long but short enough that they will still fit in the magazine. I plan on shooting an occasional 1000yd shoot maybe once or twice a year with 175's or 185's; single feed, if I need to at Douglas Ridge, which is the closest 1000yd range.

I also am not afraid of loading them hot if the need calls for it and shutting off the gas system. If I find myself needing to run with the gas on for some kind of competition, I'll go with a safe load for semi-auto and also run a grooved gas piston and maybe even drill a hole in the gas plug if I need to.

This is purely for enjoyment and maybe a local tactical match from 200 to 600yds.

For NRA style matches, I have my LRB no-lug rifle that I bedded myself in a carbon-kevlar stock which holds the 10-ring as long as I do my part with about a 50% hit ratio in the x-ring.

While I have some experts, what rifling style should I choose (5 lands)?

Thanks again so much for the help and advice. I feel very privileged to have input from you guys.

Tony.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Cdparker, here's the 93 Palma results for SVR. You Creedmoor'd me. Small world, eh?

That was my first Palma. Got smart and used a bolt gun after that.

 

[cdparker]

Grant--Wow does that bring back memories. Look at all those names. I guess that was the year after Col. Erdman retired and came back as a Civilian. I remember that the year before Michael McNamara and I got a bronze. I look at those names and wonder where they are now. Me, I'm shooting F Class and Sporting Clays. It's a lot easier on the old body.