Over the years I have found very few lots of Berger that wouldn't shoot if sorted good. Now again this is long-range. First off many custom bullet makers told me that the bigger the bullet and the longer it is, the harder it is to make. I am sure we are not going to see the accuracy of a 66 to 68 grain 6mm. Matt
Great winning barrels or is it great Bullets?
- Thread starter Tim Singleton
- Start date
dragman
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From my experience:
80% of the good makers barrels are adequate to compete with
18% of them will never be say top 10% quality
2% of them are those ones that make you smile!!!!
Bullets if you know how to measure and sort them 95% of the time you will be fine, but that 5% sometimes it's a little fat or a little skinny they just don't wanna work.
I am a HUGE A max fan. I am trying some Eld's at the moment, but have had so much success with the Amax's I have nothing bad to say about them.
80% of the good makers barrels are adequate to compete with
18% of them will never be say top 10% quality
2% of them are those ones that make you smile!!!!
Bullets if you know how to measure and sort them 95% of the time you will be fine, but that 5% sometimes it's a little fat or a little skinny they just don't wanna work.
I am a HUGE A max fan. I am trying some Eld's at the moment, but have had so much success with the Amax's I have nothing bad to say about them.
mikegaiz
Stay frosty, my friend.
In 2012 I was very lucky and set 2, 10 match IBS heavy gun records for score and group and 1 HG 6 match group record. At that time I did not have the for site to buy enough bullets in one lot to get me through the season. Over the course of the 10 matches I shot three different lot numbers of Berger 210 gr VLD bullets. So either Burger made very consistent bullets that year, or It was the Kreiger barrel that pulled it off. I just went along for the ride.
This topic is obviously split from one discipline to the next. Most of the F-Class and High Power shooters (and LR BR shooters for that matter), have never shot short range benchrest, and vice-versa. There's a big gap in how LR benchresters prepare compared to SR guys. There's even a gap between SR score, and SR group shooters. Most score shooters preload now, due to the 30BR, or other variations of short 30's. I've shot some 600 yd BR, a lot of SR score, and a lot of SR group, and this is my perspective.
How many of you make powder charge and/or seating depth changes between targets? The only accuracy discipline that I know of where almost everyone loads, and tunes as they go during a match is SR group shooting. Group shooting is a tune up contest, as much as a wind reading contest. If you've never witnessed what an extremely well tuned rifle can do in the wind, you probably wont believe me when I tell you it can defy logic. The bullet leaving the muzzle of the untuned rifle simply drifts further than the tuned bullet. I've been lucky enough to have one great barrel, and a bunch of good ones. The good ones don't do anything stupid, but the great ones cut the wind like it's not there most of the time. When it gets snotty, you don't have to hold nearly as far as with the good barrels.
I've had way too many non competitive barrels to say that they're all OK. I've personally chambered barrels, shot less than 50 rounds through them, and deemed them DOA. I'm not talking about bad shooting barrels here, heck, most would be smitten with them. But the precision required to be competitive in SR group is ridiculous. There are shooters in the Group game that chamber (or have chambered) upwards of 20 barrels each year, while shooting less than 5000 rounds a year. Many of these barrels only see a few rounds, only to be tossed in the tomato stake pile.
When it comes to bullets, I make my own, and have made probably as many bad bullets, as good ones.
Over the years, I've refined my process, and as such don't make many bad ones anymore, but I have faith that I can still screw it up. I don't believe in magic, but great jackets can increase the probability that you'll end up in the winners circle on a regular basis. Put great bullets together with a great barrel, and watch out...
How many of you make powder charge and/or seating depth changes between targets? The only accuracy discipline that I know of where almost everyone loads, and tunes as they go during a match is SR group shooting. Group shooting is a tune up contest, as much as a wind reading contest. If you've never witnessed what an extremely well tuned rifle can do in the wind, you probably wont believe me when I tell you it can defy logic. The bullet leaving the muzzle of the untuned rifle simply drifts further than the tuned bullet. I've been lucky enough to have one great barrel, and a bunch of good ones. The good ones don't do anything stupid, but the great ones cut the wind like it's not there most of the time. When it gets snotty, you don't have to hold nearly as far as with the good barrels.
I've had way too many non competitive barrels to say that they're all OK. I've personally chambered barrels, shot less than 50 rounds through them, and deemed them DOA. I'm not talking about bad shooting barrels here, heck, most would be smitten with them. But the precision required to be competitive in SR group is ridiculous. There are shooters in the Group game that chamber (or have chambered) upwards of 20 barrels each year, while shooting less than 5000 rounds a year. Many of these barrels only see a few rounds, only to be tossed in the tomato stake pile.
When it comes to bullets, I make my own, and have made probably as many bad bullets, as good ones.
Over the years, I've refined my process, and as such don't make many bad ones anymore, but I have faith that I can still screw it up. I don't believe in magic, but great jackets can increase the probability that you'll end up in the winners circle on a regular basis. Put great bullets together with a great barrel, and watch out...
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
This topic is obviously split from one discipline to the next. Most of the F-Class and High Power shooters (and LR BR shooters for that matter), have never shot short range benchrest, and vice-versa. There's a big gap in how LR benchresters prepare compared to SR guys. There's even a gap between SR score, and SR group shooters. Most score shooters preload now, due to the 30BR, or other variations of short 30's. I've shot some 600 yd BR, a lot of SR score, and a lot of SR group, and this is my perspective.
How many of you make powder charge and/or seating depth changes between targets? The only accuracy discipline that I know of where almost everyone loads, and tunes as they go during a match is SR group shooting. Group shooting is a tune up contest, as much as a wind reading contest. If you've never witnessed what an extremely well tuned rifle can do in the wind, you probably wont believe me when I tell you it can defy logic. The bullet leaving the muzzle of the untuned rifle simply drifts further than the tuned bullet. I've been lucky enough to have one great barrel, and a bunch of good ones. The good ones don't do anything stupid, but the great ones cut the wind like it's not there most of the time. When it gets snotty, you don't have to hold nearly as far as with the good barrels.
I've had way too many non competitive barrels to say that they're all OK. I've personally chambered barrels, shot less than 50 rounds through them, and deemed them DOA. I'm not talking about bad shooting barrels here, heck, most would be smitten with them. But the precision required to be competitive in SR group is ridiculous. There are shooters in the Group game that chamber (or have chambered) upwards of 20 barrels each year, while shooting less than 5000 rounds a year. Many of these barrels only see a few rounds, only to be tossed in the tomato stake pile.
When it comes to bullets, I make my own, and have made probably as many bad bullets, as good ones.
Kind of the point I was making. I do not believe you can toss a barrel with less than 50 rounds on it. I'll agree it may not love your bullet/powder combo but I do not agree that it may not set the world on fire with another combo. In LR I see guys try at least a few powders and 2-3 bullets before giving up on a barrel.
I loaded at the range for all my 1k yard matches. And I would change the load from match to match to stay in tune. Quite a few at Deep Creek load at the range for 1k, I dont believe this is very common in other clubs. It sure helps your aggs though and I think more guys should do it.
Are you suggesting that they are using different bullets in the ones that won't shoot through a condition?
Gotta admit I don't really get the point of the thread.
I do think that consistency is king and aggs are more likely to be smaller if the components are consistent.
I agree that custom bullets would be shot more if they were more available. This could be for lots of reason and not just the way a bullet shoots. Lack of lot to lot consistency is a PITA even if the consistency within the lot is good.
If I could get them I would definitely try custom for no other reason than a fundamental of reloading is consistency and I see custom bullets as directly addressing that.
Not so sure that a heap can't be learned from loading A-maxes etc but yes I think there is a point in a shooter/reloaders journey when they can benefit from greater consistency and tangibly reap the benefit on paper.
The best custom bullets are only as good as the jackets they are made on. Matt
This also exists in long-range. Most never see it. There are combos where it just shoots through the conditions way better then others. MattThis topic is obviously split from one discipline to the next. Most of the F-Class and High Power shooters (and LR BR shooters for that matter), have never shot short range benchrest, and vice-versa. There's a big gap in how LR benchresters prepare compared to SR guys. There's even a gap between SR score, and SR group shooters. Most score shooters preload now, due to the 30BR, or other variations of short 30's. I've shot some 600 yd BR, a lot of SR score, and a lot of SR group, and this is my perspective.
How many of you make powder charge and/or seating depth changes between targets? The only accuracy discipline that I know of where almost everyone loads, and tunes as they go during a match is SR group shooting. Group shooting is a tune up contest, as much as a wind reading contest. If you've never witnessed what an extremely well tuned rifle can do in the wind, you probably wont believe me when I tell you it can defy logic. The bullet leaving the muzzle of the untuned rifle simply drifts further than the tuned bullet. I've been lucky enough to have one great barrel, and a bunch of good ones. The good ones don't do anything stupid, but the great ones cut the wind like it's not there most of the time. When it gets snotty, you don't have to hold nearly as far as with the good barrels.
I've had way too many non competitive barrels to say that they're all OK. I've personally chambered barrels, shot less than 50 rounds through them, and deemed them DOA. I'm not talking about bad shooting barrels here, heck, most would be smitten with them. But the precision required to be competitive in SR group is ridiculous. There are shooters in the Group game that chamber (or have chambered) upwards of 20 barrels each year, while shooting less than 5000 rounds a year. Many of these barrels only see a few rounds, only to be tossed in the tomato stake pile.
When it comes to bullets, I make my own, and have made probably as many bad bullets, as good ones.
Yes I have seen this. Some barrels just don't like one bullet. Try another bullet and they come alive. I have also saw where some barrels like .100 or more jump. I have never had one like it but seen others that did. Matt
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Some bullets in some cases, due to the assembly line type of manufacturing or even a custom maker that doesn't have his setup right are on the verge of being unstable
They group well in light conditions
But let just a small direction change come along or intensity change and they will move drastically with that change because they are on the edge of stability
This is based on my own experience
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Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Im beginning to think when we think we've got a good lot of jackets
We actually just have the punch matched up the best to that jacket
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Imo
Un even Lead line bleed by is far and away worse than the jacket wall run out is with any of today's jackets
Un even Lead line bleed by is far and away worse than the jacket wall run out is with any of today's jackets
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
The point of the thread is to draw attention to the importance of the role the bullet plays in precision shooting.
It just seems all the attention and discussion is on all other aspects of the system and little conversation about the bullet
What I'm suggesting or just saying is some bullets will cut through a condition much better than others
A lot of credit given to the barrel for being an awesome barrel would shoot through the conditions better than anything one has had in a long time until it shot out
Or is it until that lot of bullets were gone?
Which is it?
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Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
There are more heavy 6mm custom bullets available now from several different craftsman than there has ever been
The market is driving this
More will be offered 7mm soon there is a reason for this. The same reason Berger dominates f class now. They are simply a better product than anything else available at this time in that Bullet line
The market is driving this
More will be offered 7mm soon there is a reason for this. The same reason Berger dominates f class now. They are simply a better product than anything else available at this time in that Bullet line
Accuracy dependent on bullets in one scenario,bullets not realizing their full potential in another,impossibility of accuracy in the last scenario.To open up the rabbit hole even more throw in different lots of powder!
Tim, I agree 100% with you just like the balance thing everyone talks about it wasn't the weight change they just got the punch to lead line right...
This one I'm not so sure about unless it is grossly off on one side a small amount will not matter it's thin enough to vaporize before its out of the barrel...
RGPossibly if the ballistics of the bullet were better from one lot to another. IMO "much better" needs to be quantified.
I can't buy into lot x for any given shooter reducing their agg all else being the same...i.e. if all shooters on the line would have a smaller agg for a given lot# than another lot# - takes it too far away from correctly tuning the combination of components and equipment.
Maybe I am just a sceptic but if Tom or Donavan or yourself shouted out - go buy lot x as they will just shoot better, I would watch peoples results with interest but I wouldn't jump as I believe it is the component combination combined with the skill of the reloader that makes it work. Skill relates to not just the assembly of the components but the decisions made during the load dev process.
I do buy into technologies such as cut vs button barrels being better as there is sound logic in that tolerances can be held tighter etc.
The top guys are real good at looking at results on paper and making informed choices to have a very well tuned rifle, yes bullet selection is very much a part of that process.
Which is it - its the combination of the whole, this is why not everyone that shoots lotx bullets turns up to the line and says - hey I have a hummer.
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