Found: The proper term for the kind of annealing we are trying to do
- Thread starter BoydAllen
- Start date
Minesweeper3433
45B/91F
straight down. I was trying to anneal the case head on purpose and thought that by aiming straight down I would be bypassing the point of the water in its entirety.
Minesweeper3433
45B/91F
Actually they were deprimed. I used a punch from my toolbox and drilled a hole in the desk to do it.jo191145 said:
The pan is an oil pan off of a generator that got left outside my work area.
We do things 3rd world here. My favorite is no one could find a full size jack so the man walks up and puts a bottle jack on a stack of rocks to change the tire on a bulldozer. the jack rod was bending at full extension but he changed the tire.
an epiphany
Found: The proper term for the kind of annealing we are trying
Still there are much better ways to anneal than sitting in a pan of water.
Re-discover, Re-invent, time: temperature, and heat travels to cold. Then there is the annealing with the the case being held in the hand while being rotated over/past a flame, UNNOTICED! The how-to video stops, the case become stable, the hand rotating the case is no longer present, the head of the case is no longer visible, then there is that always present ending “....and that is how it is done†Heat travels to cold? With nothing to stop the heat from traveling? Must be magic.
Too prove heat travels add water, heat the neck then watch the water separate from the case below the shoulder, water boils at 212 Degree F., the water separating from the case was called spheroid in the days of steam locomotives, in Diesel truck type engines the spheroid condition will result in a pin hole in a cylinder. Back to holding in the hand, when the case head gets too hot to hold ‘it got too hot’. Then there was the candle anneal-er, the case, held by hand, was rotated over a candle, again heat travels and time is a factor, the candle has enough heat to anneal, but the candle can not apply enough heat fast enough.
Again, I make equipment for my annealing, I did not invent ‘it’, I did not discover ‘it’ I did not add, I did nor subtract, I though the rules were simple, time, temperature and heat travels.
F. Guffey
Found: The proper term for the kind of annealing we are trying
Still there are much better ways to anneal than sitting in a pan of water.
Re-discover, Re-invent, time: temperature, and heat travels to cold. Then there is the annealing with the the case being held in the hand while being rotated over/past a flame, UNNOTICED! The how-to video stops, the case become stable, the hand rotating the case is no longer present, the head of the case is no longer visible, then there is that always present ending “....and that is how it is done†Heat travels to cold? With nothing to stop the heat from traveling? Must be magic.
Too prove heat travels add water, heat the neck then watch the water separate from the case below the shoulder, water boils at 212 Degree F., the water separating from the case was called spheroid in the days of steam locomotives, in Diesel truck type engines the spheroid condition will result in a pin hole in a cylinder. Back to holding in the hand, when the case head gets too hot to hold ‘it got too hot’. Then there was the candle anneal-er, the case, held by hand, was rotated over a candle, again heat travels and time is a factor, the candle has enough heat to anneal, but the candle can not apply enough heat fast enough.
Again, I make equipment for my annealing, I did not invent ‘it’, I did not discover ‘it’ I did not add, I did nor subtract, I though the rules were simple, time, temperature and heat travels.
F. Guffey
I don't know about scientific stuff and quotes from annealer manufacturers, but a lot of us in my neck of the woods have been annealing for a long time and from trial and error (in the beginning) and for over 40 years I've found that if the neck don't glow it is not soft enough for precise consistent ids. Before anyone jumps down my throat try it and see. I never ruined a case by annealing.
Good thread Boyd.
What I know for sure is that mere 'annealing' has always been a bad term for that desired in cartridge brass.
I still prefer to call a routine treatment 'stress relieving'. But I'll accept 'process annealing' as a deeper treatment prior to forming cases.
I use a lead dip at ~750deg(+/-25).
I get a tanning of finish that polishes away over time.
It happens for me, with my case cleaning & loads, when the tan is completely gone it's about time to stress relieve again.
Seating force indications seem to confirm.
What I know for sure is that mere 'annealing' has always been a bad term for that desired in cartridge brass.
I still prefer to call a routine treatment 'stress relieving'. But I'll accept 'process annealing' as a deeper treatment prior to forming cases.
I use a lead dip at ~750deg(+/-25).
I get a tanning of finish that polishes away over time.
It happens for me, with my case cleaning & loads, when the tan is completely gone it's about time to stress relieve again.
Seating force indications seem to confirm.
Well I've been annealing case necks the same way for 30 plus years. I use a Marie Calendar’s pie pan with about a half inch of water. That sits on my lazy susan. Stick about 10 decapped cases inside towards the center. Turn off the light. Spin the lazy susan and hit the each case neck individually right at the mouth. When the deep, red cheery glow starts, I back off and knock the case over into the water with the tip of the MAPP gas (propane too) torch. Then precede to the next case. I can do about 10 cases in 30 seconds or so. Set up time for each 10 cases is a couple on minuets. After about 30 case I change the water. It warms up pretty fast.
As for the proper names for annealing. I'm not much into the engineering-techno-babble. Particularly when it pertained to ferric alloys. I think my metal shop teacher, Mr. Manning, in 1972 knew exactly what he was talking about.
I do want to get one of those new annealing machines. You think Santa (my lovely wife) will get me one for Christmas? There's still 10 days to go. :
As for the proper names for annealing. I'm not much into the engineering-techno-babble. Particularly when it pertained to ferric alloys. I think my metal shop teacher, Mr. Manning, in 1972 knew exactly what he was talking about.
I do want to get one of those new annealing machines. You think Santa (my lovely wife) will get me one for Christmas? There's still 10 days to go. :
I certainly won't jump down your throat but at least for me to be convinced, it is going to take more than your word that it works better, have you some measurment data that shows that in fact the ids are more consistent anneal this way? To be honest, I am actually pretty interested. Also how hot does your neck get? Just saying it has to glow is pretty general.DanConzo said:
I kind of thought this was kind of the definitive artical on case annealing ?
I was able to hit the 750 deg inside the neck's and never got the body of the case over 400 deg half way down on some 6ppc cases. I went to the range and shot a few and it would appear i did not soften the base's any at all. all i can do now is wait for better weather to see if the cases have been rejuvenated to their former glory. so far it does seem they have. I was able to do this with my new bench source annealing maching..
right at about a two second dwell time.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
I was able to hit the 750 deg inside the neck's and never got the body of the case over 400 deg half way down on some 6ppc cases. I went to the range and shot a few and it would appear i did not soften the base's any at all. all i can do now is wait for better weather to see if the cases have been rejuvenated to their former glory. so far it does seem they have. I was able to do this with my new bench source annealing maching..
right at about a two second dwell time.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Well I have just spent the last hour reading about annealing ( http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html ) and testing brass ( the same article but under this heading “Testing Cartridge Brass for Hardness and Softnessâ€).
It would seem I have ruined every piece of brass I have ever annealed by the process I use (water in the pan). I just tested some brass using the above method. All brass from virgin factory to once fired and annealed to 10 firings and annealed (including my wildcat which is annealed during forming and after forming) are just fine. The bodies are hard as a rock and snap back while the necks will snap back with like a baby touch. A simple squeeze of the Vise-Grips will collapse the neck easily even on the virgin .30-'06 brass.
This is what I remember. For the heat-color of brass: Straw color (aka Blue) is 650F: Deep Cheery (only visible in the dark) is 750F; Cherry is 850F; Red is 950F and glowing Red to Orange is 1050F and above to Golden Yellow-orange at melting point, 1650F and above.
I'm not a scientists or engineer. That was my dad's job at Hughes Air Craft Co.. But I do know this. Water boils at 212F at Standard atmospheric conditions. If the water in your pan ain't boiling, you haven’t wrecked your brass. Yes the head of your case goes up to the datum line on the shoulders of your rimless, semi-rimless and rebated bottle neck cartridge. But as for anyone whom has ever shot LAPUA or Mil Spec cartridges can attest, the fact is that properly annealed brass is annealed down the head, approximately 1/3rd of [its] length from the top. The blue discoloration going around the top 1/3rd of the body is point to where the brass was at 650F plus degrees. The neck was about 850F for 3 seconds or less and visibly cheery for a moment. Albeit under strict ASTM Standards or said equivalent. Meaning, it is physically impossible to cause structural failure due to annealing below water level, particularly at BASIC or just above where insipid head and head separation occurs.
And no, if you over anneal your brass it is not ruined forever. All non-ferric metals will work harden again as they do during the drawing process from the factory. But if you do feel you have over annealed your brass... DUMP IT. Better safe than sorry.
And as Swampshooter implied in reply #6, quenching is only to cool the product off fast to keep from having burn injury. Air cooling is fine. There is no difference to product's structural integrity between “Air cooling†and “Quench coolingâ€. Just because you “air cool†will not effect your brass.
Unfortunately the implications and techno-jargon of posts #1 and reply #1 are for steel (iron alloys) and have nothing to do with cartridge brass (260 copper), which is also an alloy. But very informitive never the less.
PS. Most of the innards for light switches and electrical receptacles (outlet), as well as the male end of an electrical plug are 260 copper. Its just called “yellow brass†not “cartridge brassâ€. But both brasses are the same; 70% copper and 30% zinc.
PPS. The above test has now, after 2 hours cost me: 6 (six)- .30-'06 mix lot cases; 4 (four)- .308 Winchester (for Palma) cases; 3 (three) - 6.5 Creedmoor cases and 3 (three) very expensive .284 Achilles cases (formed from 7mm RUM case). But it is done with great love to fine the truth. I just wish I had the scientific equipment need to answer the real question. Does the use of torch and pan filled water properly anneal cartridge necks?
It would seem I have ruined every piece of brass I have ever annealed by the process I use (water in the pan). I just tested some brass using the above method. All brass from virgin factory to once fired and annealed to 10 firings and annealed (including my wildcat which is annealed during forming and after forming) are just fine. The bodies are hard as a rock and snap back while the necks will snap back with like a baby touch. A simple squeeze of the Vise-Grips will collapse the neck easily even on the virgin .30-'06 brass.
This is what I remember. For the heat-color of brass: Straw color (aka Blue) is 650F: Deep Cheery (only visible in the dark) is 750F; Cherry is 850F; Red is 950F and glowing Red to Orange is 1050F and above to Golden Yellow-orange at melting point, 1650F and above.
I'm not a scientists or engineer. That was my dad's job at Hughes Air Craft Co.. But I do know this. Water boils at 212F at Standard atmospheric conditions. If the water in your pan ain't boiling, you haven’t wrecked your brass. Yes the head of your case goes up to the datum line on the shoulders of your rimless, semi-rimless and rebated bottle neck cartridge. But as for anyone whom has ever shot LAPUA or Mil Spec cartridges can attest, the fact is that properly annealed brass is annealed down the head, approximately 1/3rd of [its] length from the top. The blue discoloration going around the top 1/3rd of the body is point to where the brass was at 650F plus degrees. The neck was about 850F for 3 seconds or less and visibly cheery for a moment. Albeit under strict ASTM Standards or said equivalent. Meaning, it is physically impossible to cause structural failure due to annealing below water level, particularly at BASIC or just above where insipid head and head separation occurs.
And no, if you over anneal your brass it is not ruined forever. All non-ferric metals will work harden again as they do during the drawing process from the factory. But if you do feel you have over annealed your brass... DUMP IT. Better safe than sorry.
And as Swampshooter implied in reply #6, quenching is only to cool the product off fast to keep from having burn injury. Air cooling is fine. There is no difference to product's structural integrity between “Air cooling†and “Quench coolingâ€. Just because you “air cool†will not effect your brass.
Unfortunately the implications and techno-jargon of posts #1 and reply #1 are for steel (iron alloys) and have nothing to do with cartridge brass (260 copper), which is also an alloy. But very informitive never the less.
PS. Most of the innards for light switches and electrical receptacles (outlet), as well as the male end of an electrical plug are 260 copper. Its just called “yellow brass†not “cartridge brassâ€. But both brasses are the same; 70% copper and 30% zinc.
PPS. The above test has now, after 2 hours cost me: 6 (six)- .30-'06 mix lot cases; 4 (four)- .308 Winchester (for Palma) cases; 3 (three) - 6.5 Creedmoor cases and 3 (three) very expensive .284 Achilles cases (formed from 7mm RUM case). But it is done with great love to fine the truth. I just wish I had the scientific equipment need to answer the real question. Does the use of torch and pan filled water properly anneal cartridge necks?
jlow--I made my own annealer and spin the cases about 100 rpm, there is a timer that engages when the torch hits the neck for the same amount of seconds for each case, when the alarm goes off I drop the handle take the case out of holder w/ gloved hand when timer hits 10 more seconds I plunge the case in ice water. I proved to myself the glow affect years ago shooting over a chronograph, then in 1000 yd B/R competition. I plunge it in ice water for my own satisfaction that heat doesn't travel to the head and then the inside of neck is easier to swab out spotless. The time is set thru trial and error for that particular case and wall thickness and length of neck and the distance the torch head is from the neck. All you got to do is try it and see if it improves your accuracy esp @ long range. I don't know how hot the neck gets and the setup brings the neck to where it just glows. I"m not worried about temp, if the case isn't cooked and it works and can be repeated I'm content. I measure my ids w/ a pin type gauge but shooting is the real test. If you have some older cases try it.
My cases never develop neck splits or head separation, however the primer pockets loosen up and that is problem I and others would like to have a tool, die or something that can tighten them up w/ pretty consistent regularity other than what is available today, especially w/ the current cost of brass.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Leaving the point of what constitutes technical jargon for a moment, when I started this thread I was well aware of the differences between copper alloys, and iron alloys, with regard to annealing. I had also used old instructions, following them as best I could, to do pan annealing, with the result that necks were usable, but softer than I would have liked, and the accuracy decreased. Case heads were unaffected.
Around three decades later, a friend ran into a problem with consistency of shoulder bump for a couple of magnum calibers. He had the budget so a rotary annealing machine, that has two torches, and pauses cases in the flames for an adjustable period of time, was purchased, along with three different temperatures of Tempilac (300,400, and 500 degree) that were used for setup. The result was that necks were not excessively softened, and with some experimentation we were able to process cases so that their shoulder bump was pleasingly uniform.
Because fully annealed brass is in my opinion softer than we like case necks to be, and workable procedures have been developed that modify the hardness of case necks without making them dead soft, I thought that it might be useful to come up with a term to describe what was being done, and since I think that one should reserve coining new words for situations where none exist that fit the requirement, I did a little looking around on the internet and came up with what became the genesis of this thread. In the process I came across numerous references to partial annealing, and I believe process annealing, as a synonym. In any case here is a little light reading. (You may want to do a little centigrade to Fahrenheit conversion at the start, so that the temperatures relate to other posts or literature.)
http://www.journalamme.org/papers_vol40_1/4012.pdf
, and here is the index of a book that has a section, mentioned in the index of partial annealing of copper alloys.http://books.google.com/books?id=cXkNMB1vBesC&pg=SA1-PA3&lpg=SA1-PA3&dq=partial+annealing+of+copper+alloys&source=bl&ots=CM8TM6HVjZ&sig=R5-UONMUW13HbD_5nh6Q-3UzZg8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sAfNUIbYN-aZiAKtvoGwAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=partial%20annealing%20of%20copper%20alloys&f=false
(Which would seem to indicate that the term is an accepted one, and not some made up jargon.)
Lest someone think that I think that they are doing something wrong, if you do not blow yourself up, and get the results that you are getting are what you want, IMO what you are doing is perfect for you, and your procedure may well may suitable for others in the same situation, that have the same desired outcome.
For what I am doing, I want to retain as much neck hardness (and bullet pull) as I can, and make seating force as uniform as possible.
Thank you all for your contributions. Please continue to post on this thread as the spirit moves you.
Around three decades later, a friend ran into a problem with consistency of shoulder bump for a couple of magnum calibers. He had the budget so a rotary annealing machine, that has two torches, and pauses cases in the flames for an adjustable period of time, was purchased, along with three different temperatures of Tempilac (300,400, and 500 degree) that were used for setup. The result was that necks were not excessively softened, and with some experimentation we were able to process cases so that their shoulder bump was pleasingly uniform.
Because fully annealed brass is in my opinion softer than we like case necks to be, and workable procedures have been developed that modify the hardness of case necks without making them dead soft, I thought that it might be useful to come up with a term to describe what was being done, and since I think that one should reserve coining new words for situations where none exist that fit the requirement, I did a little looking around on the internet and came up with what became the genesis of this thread. In the process I came across numerous references to partial annealing, and I believe process annealing, as a synonym. In any case here is a little light reading. (You may want to do a little centigrade to Fahrenheit conversion at the start, so that the temperatures relate to other posts or literature.)
http://www.journalamme.org/papers_vol40_1/4012.pdf
, and here is the index of a book that has a section, mentioned in the index of partial annealing of copper alloys.http://books.google.com/books?id=cXkNMB1vBesC&pg=SA1-PA3&lpg=SA1-PA3&dq=partial+annealing+of+copper+alloys&source=bl&ots=CM8TM6HVjZ&sig=R5-UONMUW13HbD_5nh6Q-3UzZg8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sAfNUIbYN-aZiAKtvoGwAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=partial%20annealing%20of%20copper%20alloys&f=false
(Which would seem to indicate that the term is an accepted one, and not some made up jargon.)
Lest someone think that I think that they are doing something wrong, if you do not blow yourself up, and get the results that you are getting are what you want, IMO what you are doing is perfect for you, and your procedure may well may suitable for others in the same situation, that have the same desired outcome.
For what I am doing, I want to retain as much neck hardness (and bullet pull) as I can, and make seating force as uniform as possible.
Thank you all for your contributions. Please continue to post on this thread as the spirit moves you.
jlow--The other difference in my setup and Desimones is that my torch is held in a fixture and always is the same distance from the neck, however there is no doubt in my mind that his works. A guy I used to shoot with who is now deceased told me to always anneal on the soft side of the spectrum and he had many yearly aggregates and a couple of world records, his name was Earl Chronister. He has an article in one of the older Sierra Reloading Manuals about 20+ years ago) and explains this also. When I first started annealing I used a chronograph and held the torch by hand and it worked also-another shooter and great gunsmith, who died earlier this year, Howard Wolfe showed me that.
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