Proper annealing temp?

[PatMiles]

It shows a tarnished look whether inside or out?

Tarnished as in a tarnished brass color?

 

[muleman69]

Tarnished as in a tarnished brass color?

As in tar, not as bad as that but the turquoise temp turns color . Does not come out clear like you would think. Wish I was smart enough to send pics.

 

[jepp2]

As in tar, not as bad as that but the turquoise temp turns color

The reason it is turning dark, is you are putting it on too heavily. I just took two cartridges and applied it to the outside of the case neck (so you could see the color change, I normally put it inside the case neck). Both were heated on the side of the case neck AWAY from the Tempilaq until the color changed. You can see on the case with a heavy coating, there is a dark residue. On the case with the light coating, it just went clear.

 

[muleman69]

The reason it is turning dark, is you are putting it on too heavily. I just took two cartridges and applied it to the outside of the case neck (so you could see the color change, I normally put it inside the case neck). Both were heated on the side of the case neck AWAY from the Tempilaq until the color changed. You can see on the case with a heavy coating, there is a dark residue. On the case with the light coating, it just went clear.

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Okay great news thats what I have been doing all along. So what do you apply it with and how much?

 

[jepp2]

So what do you apply it with and how much?

I used the 750° Tempilaq in a single stripe. However!! My Tempilaq is thin and most folks have problems with their Tempilaq getting too thick and separating. I have never had an issue with that. So mine is about the consistency of water. The one that is dark, I put three coats on it. As long as you can see the color after it dries, that is all you need. As thin as you can get it.

Since I can't really see the inside of the case neck very well on the 20 calibers, I just let them anneal and drop in the pan. After they cool, I pick them and check to make sure the green has gone transparent. I can just see it easier that way. And if it hasn't turned, I run them back through with a longer dwell time.

 

[muleman69]

I used the 750° Tempilaq in a single stripe. However!! My Tempilaq is thin and most folks have problems with their Tempilaq getting too thick and separating. I have never had an issue with that. So mine is about the consistency of water. The one that is dark, I put three coats on it. As long as you can see the color after it dries, that is all you need. As thin as you can get it.

Since I can't really see the inside of the case neck very well on the 20 calibers, I just let them anneal and drop in the pan. After they cool, I pick them and check to make sure the green has gone transparent. I can just see it easier that way. And if it hasn't turned, I run them back through with a longer dwell time.

Good info,I seemed to learn something everyday on this site. Thanks Jepp2

 

[varget204]

When I use tempilaq it turns from green to black, what have I done wrong?

The 750 degree tempilaq is reddish brown,I;m not sure what Tempature the green is,Check on bottle,should have melting temp some where on bottle

 

[varget204]

For those that use tempilaq,if your's is to thick,use tempaliq thinner to thin,about $10

 

[muleman69]

The 750 degree tempilaq is reddish brown,I;m not sure what Tempature the green is,Check on bottle,should have melting temp some where on bottle

Mine says 750 and is green. Pretty sure I need to find some thinner

 

[loteksw]

Touchy?

Here?

Surely you jest.

Problem is we all can’t settle on exactly what ‘annealing’ actually means, let alone arrive at a consistent protocol as to how to go about either describing it or achieving it.

Cartridge brass to be reloaded doesn’t need to be fully annealed before further processing. It’s not like we’re making new cases from raw brass stock.

When I set upon this path (ironically when I was shooting 6.5 Grendel too, abandoned years ago) I started with electric drill + deep socket + propane torch method ‘cause I already had it all laying about.

Worked fine - at least for my needs - after I burned a few cases getting things figured out.

My goal was to achieve consistent shoulder movement when re-sizing cases. Without ‘annealing’ I was seeing anywhere from 0.00” to 0.008” movement in cases fired maybe three times.

Running case shoulders in a torch flame for 7-8 seconds changed that to 0.002”-0.003” immediately.

So I moved on to other cartridges like 308WIN, 6HAGAR, 6.5WSSM briefly. Each needed a different deep socket, maybe a small change in dwell time in the torch flame, but it works.

I moved on to an MRB Annealer a few years ago after my back started hinting it didn’t appreciate the posture I kept while sitting holding that drill.

Dwell’s about 4-6 seconds now, cases behave exactly as when the cheaper method (hardware-wise) was used.

I know some favor salt-bath annealing, but if the salt being used is hazardous above 600F & that means cases have to sit in it - upside down - for awhile at a slightly lower temp to get decent “stress relief” (my preference for terminology) I’d think it’d both take too long for a bunch (300+ cases, my average batch) as well as pose risks for both case walls and my working environment due to fumes.

Let the flaming begin!! (Pun fully intended!)

I have a pot I melt lead in and have been using it to anneal my brass. Lead melts a little over 600° and it stays melted, without hardening on my brass at around 800°
I've been holding the neck and 1/2 the shoulder in for 8 sec. Hopefully it's doing some good. I got 8 reloads out of my starling brass, still no problems

 

[Rook 6]

“Brass is annealed by heating it to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time. The higher the annealing temperature, the shorter the time required to anneal. The grain structure of the brass begins to change - indicating the start of annealing - at just under 500 degrees Fahrenheit. At 600 degrees F, brass will anneal in one hour. At 800 degrees F, brass will take only a few seconds to anneal.” This is taken from an article in MassReloading.


From what I’ve found. This can be a touchy subject on the this forum.

Touchy? What do you mean????

 

[Rook 6]

“Brass is annealed by heating it to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time. The higher the annealing temperature, the shorter the time required to anneal. The grain structure of the brass begins to change - indicating the start of annealing - at just under 500 degrees Fahrenheit. At 600 degrees F, brass will anneal in one hour. At 800 degrees F, brass will take only a few seconds to anneal.” This is taken from an article that in MassReloading.


From what I’ve found. This can be a touchy subject on the this forum.

Touchy? What do you mean????

 

[Tokay444]

I do 550°C for 5 seconds, followed by a water quench to keep too much heat from migrating down the body. Perfect, consistent anneal every time. At two cases at a time, I don’t think anything is faster.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Annealing Brass is yet another one of those question if you ask it on a shooting forum you get about 100 different opinions and I say opinions because I don’t see Metallurgical engineer specializing brass annealing by their name. And what I SAY HERE IS JUST MY OPINION for the same reason. One thing. most agree on is there is no little bit annealed or more annealed it’s not annealed, annealed and over annealed and no in-between. Some say if you over anneal the brass no longer any good (to soft) and to throw it away. Why? If brass gets hard from “work hardenings (resizing, firing) could you not use it for fouler and it get hard again?
As far as what temp annealing happen take your pick from when it starts changing color, right before it glows, right after it glows, and above 750 degrees using temp paint plus the time you keep it there. Next heat source: most use some type of gas and touch another option is induction heat which I think could be a more constant heat source. Then the “Annealer” I’ve seen as simple as setting brass in water up to necks heating next with torch, spin with drill and heating with torch, Homemade using variable speed motor Cake pan and torch, to a store bought several hundred dollars top of the line. Lot of option to go with a lot of opinions. I once read on the internet that
* Abe Lincoln once said don’t believe everything you read on the internet

My take (My opinion) If I heat brass (neck) from between 750 degrees and below starting to glow and I maintain that temp for the same amount of time that it took to go from ambient temp to above 750 and by turning the brass so this is consistent all the way around and the full length of the neck I consider it annealed.
What kind of annealer will do this? According to people on the internet all of the ones listed above will
Read* again
But which is simple, Consistent flip the switch and anneal with minimal adjustment day after day. Probably the better store-bought ones.
When I 1st started thinking of annealing improving accuracy It was not my goal this was before I was shooting long range BR match my goal was to make my brass last longer (neck splits).
So, because that’s my MO I built one a few years back. Does it work, is my opinion right, all I know is it looks like new brass that came annealed, it seems to take less pressure to run the mandrel in and I don’t have split neck problems so that leads me to believe that it is annealed I put 2400 rounds on 6BrX using 150 pieces of brass the brass that went bad was not because of neck splits and no split necks on my other brass. Maybe someone here can tell something else to check to see if it annealed. So, is my ammo more accurate? Well, they say annealed brass is more and I say my brass is annealed so I guess the answer is yes

 

[Artisan]

You may be spot on there! 590C = 1,094F! Lead (Pb) melts at 622F; some advocate using that for annealing, but heated beyond melting temps the vapors too are toxic.

Might I ask, just what ‘salt’ is recommended for this process?

There are many kinds that decompose at elevated temps. You do NOT want to be casually messing about with anything ending in cyanide...

Where did the Celsius come from? I always presumed, when someone, in the US, speaks of temps, they are referring to Fahrenheit? Epsom salts, love to soak in it, for a couple hours or less, trying not to absorb, to much salt, through ones pores (could be bad for high-blood-pressure). Once a month for my back, leaves me invigorated. A little baking-soda too, it balances my PH.
Speaking of cyanide, ever read what the composition is, from the burnt chemicals, in the primer mix, that solders itself into the brass, on the primer-pocket? Ever wonder why it's so hard to get off? When I first used a wet-tumbler, I would pull the cases, out of the water with my hand. It saved time, leaving more SS pins, on the bottom of the tumbler. In a short time (3 days) the outer layer of skin, came off my entire hand. Scared me. I had assumed, most of the black-water, coming out of the tumbler, was carbon. It is, but mixed with it, are the burnt chemicals, from the primers. If this stuff were labeled, it would have 4 XXXX;s on it, meaning, death is certain, it's just a matter of time. I now use, laboratory-rubber gloves. Once stripped, cases are ready to anneal. I use Templaq 750 & 450, at least once, on each manufacturers case, finding my dwell-time and recording it in my data-book, for future reference. Take a 308 Win case, from 7 different manufacturers. Some may share the same dwell time, others may be -/+ .10 seconds and this, I need to know. I break down 1 second into tenths. Now I have a more precise measurement. I not only put 750 Templaq inside the neck, I run a thick-stripe of 450 Templaq, straight down, starting at the shoulder and ending 1/4" from the bottom of the case. I now know, the degree of heat, which travels down a case. Cases, shot over and over in my bolt-action, I negate annealing the shoulder. I put the blue-tip of the flame, pointed at a slight angle (away from the case) right at the end of the case. This will anneal the neck only and not the shoulder. Now if the case will be used in other rifles, I put the flame, pointed right where the neck and shoulder meet. This will anneal the case, down 1/8"-1/4" just below the shoulder. Understand, I have processed, hundreds and thousands of cases. Having to deal with, the many, different manufacturers, I always need to be on my A-Game. It's not the same, as someone who loads, just a few calibers, of the same manufacturer's case, doing 100 or less at one time. I do 100 to a load, 7-10 loads in a night. I try to anneal the same caliber cases, all at one time. I purchased and use an Annealezz.. I don't think any particular way is perfect. You need to tweek it, to suit your wants and needs. I have made modifications and still continuing to make improvements, for my needs. For anyone just getting into annealing, I would suggest, the AGS annealer. Other than spending, your time and money to make an annealing device, it's the smallest investment at $230, not to mention, the small foot-print, of just 6"X 6" and it will do, most all of the common cases.The company will even make you, custom-collars, to anneal wild-cat calibers too. I'm always interested in new ideas and suggestions, so keep an open-mind.

 

[338 dude]

Every time I read one of these threads, I get down on my knees, so thankful for the AMP machine.

Me too