Found: The proper term for the kind of annealing we are trying to do

[mikecr]

How do you determine how long to leave the neck in the lead, and how deep in the molten metal do you dip?

My process leads to a steady insertion inward/outward over a ~30sec period, for full neck & shoulders.
For deep body it takes ~45sec.
This isn't for reaching temperature though. The molten lead is heating from inside and outside to immediately bring brass in contact to lead temp.
I have all the time in the world with this control, and figure my timing is plenty as longer dips do not darken the tan further.

Caseheads on new WSSM brass dipped mid body remain well below 400deg. For neck dipping of 223 cases I don't even need gloves.

 

[TC260]

I'm glad to see y'all have finally come around. I've mentioned on here numerous times in the past year that there's two different forms of annealing, partial/process/recovery and full annealing but I guess nobody was listening ;D.

And no, if you over anneal your brass it is not ruined forever. All non-ferric metals will work harden again as they do during the drawing process from the factory. But if you do feel you have over annealed your brass... DUMP IT. Better safe than sorry.

yes and no. They will work harden again. The problem is that when the brass is over-heated, the grain structure is likely changed from what it was originally and therefore many of the material's properties won't be the same as before it was overheated....Edit, when I posted this I hadn't read the links that Boyd had posted. In the first link http://www.journalamme.org/papers_vol40_1/4012.pdf the discussion about "recrystallization annealing" is a different way of saying full annealing or "over annealing" in regard to reloading. If you go all the way down to the bottom of the article to the conclusions, it discusses the changes in mechanical properties that occur when we over heat the brass. That's why re-work hardening (strain hardening) the brass after overheating isn't the same as before it was overheated.

 

[DanConzo]

What was said above about necks being too soft I don't agree with, if you work up a load w/ brass that has been fired a couple times w/o annealing then you decide to anneal and the load don't shoot as good is understandable, but if you anneal to a soft state from the get-go and work up a good load your loads and your accuracy will be repeatable that's why a lot of good shooters anneal everytime so everything is the same. New Lapua brass is pretty soft at least in the cases I've dealt with. However, I agree whatever works for the shooter and he's content is the way to go, esp if he's getting good results.

 

[BoydAllen]

You have done this with a 6PPC and 133, or are you just taking the results from another combination and assuming that all cases are the same? I agree that some combinations may not depend on having a lot of bullet pull to reach their potential. I have even had experience with a powder that had that characteristic, when used in my PPC, but unless you have proven your thesis for a particular application, you are just guessing, as do we all, from time to time.

 

[DanConzo]

I can't speak about the ppc, but the 6.5/284 (Lapua) and cartridges using Wby brass (made by Norma to Wby specs), this is what I found. Also the 270 Win (Norma) and others. I shoot w/ several shooters that use the 6.5/47 Lapua case and others w/ the 6br (Dasher) case(Lapua) and they anneal on the soft side, some everytime and a few every third firing @ the most. The ppc isn't in my game.

 

[BoydAllen]

Good info that I am sure many will find interesting...and useful

 

[Webster]

Your reference to the austenitic phase in steel may be confusing to many people. Copper and brass don't have an austenitic phase.

 

[Webster]

In order for the case head to soften from heating the neck. Heating the neck would have to transfer enough heat to the case head to get it over 600-700F. It cannot happen. The brass cools rapidly because it's thin and has a lot of surface area. I used to anneal in a lead pot for casting bullets at 650F. That's as hot as I could get it. I held the cases in my fingers in front of the case head in the lead somewhere around 8-10 seconds before the case was to hot to hold. It's about 140F when material reaches the temperature that you have to drop it so you don't get burned. If the case head reached 400-500F or more no annealing would take place.