Salt Bath Annealing - AMP Study

[Dave M.]

I'm guessing you've never tried it because you are incorrect. I have achieved very satisfactory results with SBA. I have since moved on to the induction method, but only because I wanted to anneal in the house.

If it was that good, you’d still be doing it.

 

[mikecr]

Salt bath annealing is a poor way to anneal your brass.

Did you have any basis for this declaration?
Any logical or rational input of your own?

 

[Rick300]

If it was that good, you’d still be doing it.

I said that I wanted to anneal in the house. SBA is not a good choice for that...... obviously. I usually find the people who talk smack about it are the ones who have never tried it.
Rick out

 

[Canuckenstein]

If it was that good, you’d still be doing it.

The way I see it is if it does not improve the brass life and neck tension I’m only out $80 Canadian pesos. If it does what it says it should as well as our on-site metallurgist says. Then I’m still only out $80 Canadian pesos. Not $2000.00ish I could (may be not anymore with inflation these days) buy 1000pcs of lapua brass instead.

It may not be “Made Perfect” but if it gives me 10-15 loadings on my Norma and RWS (Some LC) brass. Then worth all $80 pesos it is. If not I always have a torch and propane .

My point is, that money for many people could be spent on better optics, a new barrel or $150 brick of primers. “Sigh”

 

[mikecr]

I have used a lead bath in my Lee melting pot. Lead fumes are dangerous. The problem I had was lead sticking to the case. Sometimes you cannot remove it easily.

Lead does not fume at the temperatures we use for our annealing(~850degF).
The trick to preventing lead sticking is slow dip/retrieval with a case first dipped (and drained off to film) in Mobil 1 or Amsoil synthetic.

Whether lead dip or salt, IMO, either works perfectly well to relieve stress in our brass.
It's precise with actual temperature measure, inexpensive, fast, easy enough for a caveman, and versatile to desired case depth for any case size. Yeah, you do it out in the garage where it's spill safe and a little smoke from oil film can blow away. No big deal.

The only thing [hotter than dip] methods do 'better' is FULL annealing, which reloaders do not ever want or need. It's actually what you're trying to prevent. Maybe you use these methods inside your house.
I would still go out in the garage for it.

I have no problem with a perfectly calibrated induction method. But why reach over simple for cutting edge complexity and cost? If I dip all my brass, heated inside and outside at 850degF, for ~10sec, how will I get a 'better' stress relieving otherwise? Dip for only 5sec, or 30sec? No. A stress relief grain growth from brass at that temperature happens nearly immediately, and does not continue through a handheld dip.
The result is as consistent as it gets. Hoop tension/springback forces that match as I developed with.

 

[BoydAllen]

Here's the thing. People were annealing for a long time before the advent of induction. or salt bath machines. Back in the day a friend had a problem with inconsistent shoulder bump. He bought a two torch annealer, I helped him set it up and the problem was fixed. I have another friend who had one of the simple Hornady kits (no longer available) , to which I suggested he add a cheap electronic metronome so that he could hear the seconds tick off. It gave him the more consistent seating force that he was looking for, with no complaints. Bottom line, you don't need to defend your chosen method if you are happy with the results. Is is really that surprising that the makers of the most expensive annealing machine would contend that other methods are inferior? Perhaps by some standard they are, but if you are satisfied, who cares?

 

[Canuckenstein]

Lead does not fume at the temperatures we use for our annealing(~850degF).
The trick to preventing lead sticking is slow dip/retrieval with a case first dipped (and drained off to film) in Mobil 1 or Amsoil synthetic.

Whether lead dip or salt, IMO, either works perfectly well to relieve stress in our brass.
It's precise with actual temperature measure, inexpensive, fast, easy enough for a caveman, and versatile to desired case depth for any case size. Yeah, you do it out in the garage where it's spill safe and a little smoke from oil film can blow away. No big deal.

The only thing [hotter than dip] methods do 'better' is FULL annealing, which reloaders do not ever want or need. It's actually what you're trying to prevent. Maybe you use these methods inside your house.
I would still go out in the garage for it.

I have no problem with a perfectly calibrated induction method. But why reach over simple for cutting edge complexity and cost? If I dip all my brass, heated inside and outside at 850degF, for ~10sec, how will I get a 'better' stress relieving otherwise? Dip for only 5sec, or 30sec? No. A stress relief grain growth from brass at that temperature happens nearly immediately, and does not continue through a handheld dip.
The result is as consistent as it gets. Hoop tension/springback forces that match as I developed with.

Who you calling a caveman? Lol

 

[Dave M.]

Did you have any basis for this declaration?
Any logical or rational input of your own?

7 years of industry design work for induction heat treating, forging, precious metals melting, and annealing. Dozens of induction systems designed for various purposes. Access to some excellent metallurgists and equipment.
25+ years of experience in automotive industry engineering. I’ve looked at all different types of annealing systems for brass. None of the systems available can even come close to the focused heat, repeatability, and limited variation that induction offers. I’ve measured hardness on cut sections of new brass, fired brass, freshly annealed brass. I hope this validates my statements previously made.
Dave

 

[JimSC]

Just my 2 cents worth here proven only by a couple of home grown experiments. I have long since sold my flame annealer and switched to the AMP purely for convenience. Since switching my scores have not improved one bit. I have been a middle of the pack 194 - 197 shooter on a good day regardless of what annealing method I have used. On the other hand the guy who bought my Annealeeze from me went on to win both the mid and long range club championships using brass treated on the Annealeeze. He had a clean 600 score in the mid range championship using a .223.

My test results have indicated that a perfect anneal is not needed. What is needed is brass with a consistent neck hardness. Whether the necks are fully hard, fully annealed, or somewhere in the middle I believe the critical part of the equation is that they are all the same hardness and the load is tuned to produce the smallest groups by adjusting neck size, powder charge and seating depth. What method that you use to get the neck hardness uniform be it flame, induction, salt bath or no annealing at all and keeping the number of firings the same is the key in keeping the neck hardness consistent. That keeps the plastic/elastic properties of the brass consistent. Differing hardness of the brass with different amounts of work hardening due to different numbers of firing will cause different neck tensions since the yield points will differ

That said I will stick with my AMP because of the convenience of use. If it were to die and I could not get it repaired at a reasonable cost I would probably revert to my old drill/socket and plumber torch method or one of the newer flame machines that do not use plastic wheels.

again this is just the opinion of a guy who annealed, stopped annealing altogether, went back to annealing and has used 3 different methods of annealing. YMMV

edited for clarity

 

[mikecr]

I’ve looked at all different types of annealing systems for brass. None of the systems available can even come close to the focused heat, repeatability, and limited variation that induction offers. I’ve measured hardness on cut sections of new brass, fired brass, freshly annealed brass. I hope this validates my statements previously made.

Did you test dip annealing of brass in comparison?
If so, what was it that went wrong there?
Is this w/resp to FULL annealing, or the process annealing that reloaders do?

The main reason I ask is that I honestly can't think of a way that dip annealing could be inferior for our stress relieving of brass. It takes brass to exactly the temperatures we need, and unlike all other methods, it cannot exceed this temperature, so timing is removed from factor. Right.
It doesn't matter if I 850degF dip for 5sec, or 500sec, as grain structure immediately grows to it's 850deg balance, and does not continue onward to full annealing -ever.

Now if I tried to dip into 1200degF, or a burn at 5000degF, or apply what can flat out melt our brass, that would be different. Timing would be a critical matter there.
But for what we need, there is no reason to do anything like this.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't shoot and reload to put meat on a table.
The only thing that seems to satisfy me about whatever I'm doing is understanding of it.
So help me understand the bettering of our process anneal, please.