F-Class @ Camp Perry - 2015

[280man]

I believe this would allow F-Open shooters to help run the FTR days. I think people would be a little more willing to help if they also got to shoot in their chosen category.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I believe this would allow F-Open shooters to help run the FTR days. I think people would be a little more willing to help if they also got to shoot in their chosen category.

Good point.

Also, we could have it: Squadded practice, F-O, F-TR, F-O, F-TR, Team matches, F-O, F-TR.

This could be turned around each year. This is 8 days.

 

[WindSurgeon]

It looks like our sport is possibly in need of new facilities that can handle current need and future growth. We need a national F-Class shooting center located somewhere in the middle of the country. Big vision stuff. 8)

 

[clowdis]

Straight from the horses mouth on the National Match forum:

"That means the $20K in awards provided for Mid Range will now go to the sling shooters.

Anybody that believes this crap please raise your right hand. The midrange matches aren't even matches except for the aggregates. Was robbed of a new record at 300 yds. this year because NRA won't recognize each yard line as a match. So I don't see them adding that 20 grand to the sling shooters prize purse. Maybe some senators purse.

 

[Erud]

Straight from the horses mouth on the National Match forum:

"On Friday I arranged for Mid Range F-Class to go to Phoenix and be held in conjunction with the LR Championship. That means the $20K in awards provided for Mid Range will now go to the sling shooters. If there was ever a time to shoot MR, 2015 will be it. Based on 2014 attendance, the $20K will be divided up among 49 competitors.

There will be NO F-Class competition at Camp Perry in 2015 or 2016."

This quote is SERIOUSLY taken out of context. It may be worth noting that the quoted text appears in post #658 of a 45-page monster thread about ideas on how to improve the National Matches. I would suggest reading the thread before making assumptions about Dennis or the NRA's intent.

 

[ARshuter]

IIRC wasn't there another championship match the same week as Perry or maybe the week before? Of course attendance would be down.

 

[Scott Harris]

If the reason for separating F-TR and F-Open matches is because of the increasing number of competitors and a limited number of ranges with enough firing points to accommodate them, how will that really help if a significant number of shooters then decide to shoot both matches simply because they can? I think it's a safe bet that quite a few shooters would attend both if they were held separately, potentially negating the whole concept of holding them at smaller ranges.

I like shooting F-TR side-by-side with the Open shooters. They're a great bunch of folks and separating the F-TR from F-Open would be a major detraction from the event IMO. I also don't view spreading the FCNC out so it covers more than a week is the way to go either, because there will be a number of competitors that can't attend for that length of time. Increasing the length of a competition that currently is completed in only 4 days to 7 or 8 days makes little sense.

No matter how you slice it, if the number of competitors continues to increase, there are only a couple viable alternatives. The first is simply to hold FCNC at the limited number of venues that can accommodate the numbers of shooters attending, as is currently being done. This approach will probably work for some time yet. However, if the number of participants continues to increase, at some point the idea of qualifying for FCNC at the state/regional level needs to be discussed as a realistic option, preferably well in advance of the time it becomes a necessity.

^^^^^^what he said!^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While it's a nice sentiment to allow smaller ranges to host national-level matches, it is not very practical. Part of the excitement of the national championships is having a lot of people show up: both F-TR and F-Open at the same time. Suggestions to alternate F-TR and F-Open, thereby stretching out the event are not good in my opinion. Who the heck wants to spend an extra few days just pulling targets? Who has the time or money to do so?

IMHO we need facilities worthy of a national championship. Let's not turn this into a weekend club or regional match. If that limits the event to a few sites: so be it.

 

[Steve Blair]

^^^^^^what he said!^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While it's a nice sentiment to allow smaller ranges to host national-level matches, it is not very practical. Part of the excitement of the national championships is having a lot of people show up: both F-TR and F-Open at the same time. Suggestions to alternate F-TR and F-Open, thereby stretching out the event are not good in my opinion. Who the heck wants to spend an extra few days just pulling targets? Who has the time or money to do so?

IMHO we need facilities worthy of a national championship. Let's not turn this into a weekend club or regional match. If that limits the event to a few sites: so be it.

[br]
Greg and Scott have this right. There are four geographically distributed ranges qualified to host the Nationals. Why is that not enough? Every year, folks come from all over the U.S. and Canada to attend the Berger SW LR Nationals because it is a great, well attended event and shooters want to be a part of that. Let's not balkanize F-Class but continue shooting together at facilities adequate to the task.

 

[Lbart]

I will shoot the FCN's no matter how or where they are conducted, but I have to agree with Greg, Scott and Steve. Stick with one large Nat's. The formula has worked quite well, don't mess with success. If people are not happy to travel to where it is held that year they don't have to come. You cannot please everyone no matter what you do.

 

[Warren Dean]

I agree with Larry, Scott and Steve. The FCNC format is fine like it is.

My 2 cents worth here....traveling is just part of the sport. If you don't want to travel, stay home. Pretty simple, really. It's part of the cost to play the game.

 

[280man]

^^^^^^what he said!^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While it's a nice sentiment to allow smaller ranges to host national-level matches, it is not very practical. Part of the excitement of the national championships is having a lot of people show up: both F-TR and F-Open at the same time. Suggestions to alternate F-TR and F-Open, thereby stretching out the event are not good in my opinion. Who the heck wants to spend an extra few days just pulling targets? Who has the time or money to do so?

IMHO we need facilities worthy of a national championship. Let's not turn this into a weekend club or regional match. If that limits the event to a few sites: so be it.

[br]
Greg and Scott have this right. There are four geographically distributed ranges qualified to host the Nationals. Why is that not enough? Every year, folks come from all over the U.S. and Canada to attend the Berger SW LR Nationals because it is a great, well attended event and shooters want to be a part of that. Let's not balkanize F-Class but continue shooting together at facilities adequate to the task.

Steve

Please elaborate on the four ranges. I only know of 2. Raton and Phoenix. IMO military ranges should not be used to host Nationals as they can be canceled at the last minute and we will be up a creek.

 

[clowdis]

I think the other 2 are Butner and Perry, both military ranges. I don't know of any private range on the East coast with 50 or more positions. If you limit yourself to large private ranges then the Nationals will be forever more in the Southwest and forget moving them around country. Usually military ranges wil honor their committment to civilian clubs if the country isn't at war. The only time we've had issues at Butner or Lejeune was during the early part of the war in Afganistan and Iraq. I can't speak for other clubs using military ranges but our relationships have been pretty good.

 

[falconpilot]

I think the other 2 are Butner and Perry, both military ranges. I don't know of any private range on the East coast with 50 or more positions. If you limit yourself to large private ranges then the Nationals will be forever more in the Southwest and forget moving them around country. Usually military ranges wil honor their committment to civilian clubs if the country isn't at war. The only time we've had issues at Butner or Lejeune was during the early part of the war in Afganistan and Iraq. I can't speak for other clubs using military ranges but our relationships have been pretty good.

I think this is exactly what some are hoping for...

 

[falconpilot]

I agree with Larry, Scott and Steve. The FCNC format is fine like it is.

My 2 cents worth here....traveling is just part of the sport. If you don't want to travel, stay home. Pretty simple, really. It's part of the cost to play the game.

Traveling is part of the sport...I'd venture to say that I've traveled this year as much as any one shooter shooting..but I've been fortunate to have the job and means that allows me too. When we are talking
about a National event, the location should be moved around to allow everyone the chance to shoot a National event, not just that are fortunate enough to have the time and means.

 

[Heman]

I just want to say as a sling shooter I stand up for the f-class shooters. My first season in 2007 I shot F-class before starting to shoot sling in 2008. I've shot F-Class occasionally since then and going to do some more here definitely in 2015. Some of the comments expressed by some of the sling shooters such as "Death before F-Class", or they shouldn't be allowed here because that isn't real shooting make my blood boil and I usually say something to the people who make those comments. When the former comment was made this year at Camp Perry I informed the shooter to please look at the numbers becasue the F-class MR shooters at Perry were about half the total numbers. Just like when F-Class shooters will say sling is easy because you shoot on a bigger target. As the match director at Camp Atterbury this is something that I am trying to deal with and fix. So please don't think all sling shooters have a disdain for F-Class shooters. I have some very good shooting friends such as Dan Pohlabel, Mark Houseman, and Dale Carpenter to name a few and I enjoy seeing them at matches. Everyone needs to be supportive of all shooters as we are all in this sport together. I think if more shooters would crossover they would see that each is difficult in its own ways.

Now as far as the move I can see why from the NRA's standpoint they would move the MR championship out of Camp Perry as it makes sense to have it in conjunction with the LR F-Class championship. In talking with Dennis several times over the phone I can tell you he is working VERY HARD to find ways to grow the sport of competitive shooting as some of the areas are dying due to lack of attendance. Some of the changes that are being made and will be made are going to be different but there needs to be changes made in some areas because numbers are going down. For F-Class this isn't so much of an issue as new shooters tend to go to F-Class but for the sport as a whole they are going down.

Maybe this didn't make sense and wasn't needed but just wanted to add my $0.02

Thanks,
Shawn Agne

 

[WindSurgeon]

I agree with Larry, Scott and Steve. The FCNC format is fine like it is.

My 2 cents worth here....traveling is just part of the sport. If you don't want to travel, stay home. Pretty simple, really. It's part of the cost to play the game.

Traveling is part of the sport...I'd venture to say that I've traveled this year as much as any one shooter shooting..but I've been fortunate to have the job and means that allows me too. When we are talking
about a National event, the location should be moved around to allow everyone the chance to shoot a National event, not just that are fortunate enough to have the time and means.

+2 on this comment. If we want the sport to expand long term, you have to make it accessible to more shooters. Most guys I know don't have time and/or money to travel on top of a job and family, but would jump at the chance to shoot a national if within reasonable driving distance. Those that can travel at will, will travel no matter where the nationals are held.

 

[Matthew Schwartzkopf]

It looks like our sport is possibly in need of new facilities that can handle current need and future growth. We need a national F-Class shooting center located somewhere in the middle of the country. Big vision stuff. 8)

If someone funds it I will design and build it. ;D ;D

 

[KT]

It seems that the people who are in favor of that Nationals staying in Raton or Ben Avery seem to live within a reasonable driving distance of Raton or Ben Avery. I like Mike and Petros, was looking forward to shooting at Perry in 2016.

 

[280man]

All of these reasons are why the majority of us want to continue our tradition and keep it moving around the country. Now we have to figure out a reasonable way to do it. Does that mean spiting FTR and Open like I mentioned earlier? Does it mean we limit participation by having regional qualification matches? Should we use the current classification system to limit participation to range capacity? Hopefully this will be for us to decide.

 

[falconpilot]

Rick,

I believe that splitting up FTR and F-Open and placing them on seperate dates, at seperate location is a viable option. This will allow smaller ranges to host either event, and also keep a "cap" on all the guys that would "crossover" if the events where shot back to back in the same location, thus exceeding the range cap at small ranges while at the same time allow those die hard guys that would shoot both to be able to do so...looks like a win/win to me..