2014 NRA F-Class Mid-Range Nationals At Camp Perry

[Steve Blair]

: Whhheeeeewwwwwwww!!! At least now we don't have to worry about Steve takin' all the prizes back to AZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dan

[br]
Even were I to attend, those prizes would be far less threatened by me, than you. However, it's worse than you describe. They would not go to Arizona, but California. Upon arrival, they would have to be microstamped and registered with the California DOJ.

 

[Immike]

This is a must attend match on my schedule! Thanks to LMT, Berger and sponsors this past year. Winner of each class this past year were awarded with $4500+ in cash and prizes thanks to great sponsors. I challenge you to find better prizes/payout in any other Mid/LR event!!! Top it all off, getting to put the trigger and fire on such a historical range, and compete were the best have fired shots over the past 100 years is award enough in itself for me.

Jim, I have wanted to step on the turf of this range for the last 30 years. I finally get to after all this time. I heard that the Fclass long range nationals may be held here in a couple years, is that true?

 

[Rtheurer]

Thank You DE F Open

You answered some questions for the Sling shooters about Iron and Scope matches. Plus the Team Match. Much appreciated.

RussT

 

[DE-F-Open]

Immike,

Yes, it is true that the F-Class Long Range Nationals will be held in Phoenix in 2014 & 2015 and are then scheduled to move to Camp Perry in 2016. Hopefully we will be able to shoot mid-range and then roll right into long range, just as we do now at Perry.

Hope this helps,

DE-F-Open

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Immike,

Yes, it is true that the F-Class Long Range Nationals will be held in Phoenix in 2014 & 2015 and are then scheduled to move to Camp Perry in 2016. Hopefully we will be able to shoot mid-range and then roll right into long range, just as we do now at Perry.

Hope this helps,

DE-F-Open

T-h-a-n-k g-o-o-d-n-e-s-s...two car round-trips a year from AL to AZ is wearing out...well everything!!! But, there goes my In-N-Out-Burger fix.

Dan

 

[Bob Sebold]

Oh, Danny, stop your whining! At least its above zero down there. You don't have anything else to do anyway! Job, sorting bullets is NOT a job. It's a passion. Polishing all those medals and trophies, now that might be a job. If you do a little planning, I am sure you can use up all 2500 of those bullets in a sand pile at some long distance. See you soon at a dead stop on an interstate near you!

 

[XTR]

Immike,

Yes, it is true that the F-Class Long Range Nationals will be held in Phoenix in 2014 & 2015 and are then scheduled to move to Camp Perry in 2016. Hopefully we will be able to shoot mid-range and then roll right into long range, just as we do now at Perry.

Hope this helps,

DE-F-Open

As much as I really want to see the Long Range FCNC somewhere in the east I have reservations about the way it will b conducted at Camp Perry. (I do however realize the class has gotten so big that there is no place else in the east that can host it) Camp Perry is the slowest place I've ever been to, anywhere. I particularly would not like to see the Long Range FCNC get rolled in with the Long Range HP championship at Perry.

[mini rant]

I shot the Camp Perry Long Range F class the first yr it was held in 2012. If I recall correctly the National Championship Matches at Perry shoot four 20 shot matches, with shootoffs to decide match winners. The 2012 matches we shot four 20 shot matches over three days. (two Saturday, one Sunday and one Monday) That's it. Eighty shots for record over four days.

Communications from the Perry/NRA organization are... shall we say less than ideal? Last yr according to the Mid Range program it required that you shoot the team match because it was going to be included in your agg. Whether or not that is what happened (I know it wasn't) it was never officially announced that it was otherwise. I heard it would be changed, but really, plan the trip and take the chance? no Especially not the week before Raton, stay home and load bullets.

Maybe I'm spoiled by the fantastic work done by Bald Eagles and the guys who put on the matches at Raton for the last two yrs, and Ben Avery looks to be on track to be run the same way that Raton was, and Camp Perry, "still waiting" (As noted earlier in this post they still have not announced the schedule for long range)

The current FCNC format is eight matches (6x15 and 2x20) over a four day period with a team day on day three. At Perry that would take two weeks. Squadding at the FCNC is seeded after the first day. At Perry your squads are assigned for the entire match when you check in. If the Long Range FCNC gets rolled into the Camp Perry HP championships the Long Range FCNC goes from being decided by an aggregate of 130 shots for record to 80 shots for record.

I'll assume (hope) that they won't squad F-TR and F-Open on the same relays again at Camp Perry. The way that worked out in 2012 one F-TR shooter ended up making every shootoff because he was the top TR shooter in his relay, turns out he may have been the only TR shooter (he made one shoot off with a cross fire) The good news is that he is actually a very good F-TR shooter, one of the best, but still, you shouldn't be making shootoffs with cross fires. It was less than obvious because a US Team member making shootoffs is not making anyone do a double take [/rant]

The point of all that is that the FCNC is run extremely well today. If it is being moved to Camp Perry I think it would behoove those who are in a position to effect policy to try to keep it from being conducted in conjunction with the current National Matches at Camp Perry.

Just one shooters opinion, provided free of charge on the internet so take it for what it's worth.

 

[DE-F-Open]

All good points to be considered.

If we can't rant among ourselves where can we rant....?

May I be so bold as to suggest that you might want to send your thoughts and these ideas to NRA Competitions Division?

Dennis Willing is the new Director of Competitions and I know that he would very much like to hear what you have to say.

Unlike his predecessor, Dennis is "one of us". He is a competitive shooter (High Power, Pistol and PPC - "Distinguished" in all of those disciplines) and his heart is with the competitors. He will want to hear what you have to say.

 

[manitou210]

Does F/TR class in USA allow 90gr bullets in 223 I have read somewhere 80gr where max ?

 

[XTR]

Does F/TR class in USA allow 90gr bullets in 223 I have read somewhere 80gr where max ?

In US F-TR there are no bullet weight limitations. That comes from International Full Bore.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Immike,

Yes, it is true that the F-Class Long Range Nationals will be held in Phoenix in 2014 & 2015 and are then scheduled to move to Camp Perry in 2016. Hopefully we will be able to shoot mid-range and then roll right into long range, just as we do now at Perry.

Hope this helps,

DE-F-Open

As much as I really want to see the Long Range FCNC somewhere in the east I have reservations about the way it will b conducted at Camp Perry. (I do however realize the class has gotten so big that there is no place else in the east that can host it) Camp Perry is the slowest place I've ever been to, anywhere. I particularly would not like to see the Long Range FCNC get rolled in with the Long Range HP championship at Perry.

[mini rant]

I shot the Camp Perry Long Range F class the first yr it was held in 2012. If I recall correctly the National Championship Matches at Perry shoot four 20 shot matches, with shootoffs to decide match winners. The 2012 matches we shot four 20 shot matches over three days. (two Saturday, one Sunday and one Monday) That's it. Eighty shots for record over four days.

Communications from the Perry/NRA organization are... shall we say less than ideal? Last yr according to the Mid Range program it required that you shoot the team match because it was going to be included in your agg. Whether or not that is what happened (I know it wasn't) it was never officially announced that it was otherwise. I heard it would be changed, but really, plan the trip and take the chance? no Especially not the week before Raton, stay home and load bullets.

Maybe I'm spoiled by the fantastic work done by Bald Eagles and the guys who put on the matches at Raton for the last two yrs, and Ben Avery looks to be on track to be run the same way that Raton was, and Camp Perry, "still waiting" (As noted earlier in this post they still have not announced the schedule for long range)

The current FCNC format is eight matches (6x15 and 2x20) over a four day period with a team day on day three. At Perry that would take two weeks. Squadding at the FCNC is seeded after the first day. At Perry your squads are assigned for the entire match when you check in. If the Long Range FCNC gets rolled into the Camp Perry HP championships the Long Range FCNC goes from being decided by an aggregate of 130 shots for record to 80 shots for record.

I'll assume (hope) that they won't squad F-TR and F-Open on the same relays again at Camp Perry. The way that worked out in 2012 one F-TR shooter ended up making every shootoff because he was the top TR shooter in his relay, turns out he may have been the only TR shooter (he made one shoot off with a cross fire) The good news is that he is actually a very good F-TR shooter, one of the best, but still, you shouldn't be making shootoffs with cross fires. It was less than obvious because a US Team member making shootoffs is not making anyone do a double take [/rant]

The point of all that is that the FCNC is run extremely well today. If it is being moved to Camp Perry I think it would behoove those who are in a position to effect policy to try to keep it from being conducted in conjunction with the current National Matches at Camp Perry.

Just one shooters opinion, provided free of charge on the internet so take it for what it's worth.

Fully agree. IMO, Perry will need to abandon their perennial penchant for a "shoot-off" and adopt the Bald Eagle concept of "daily seeding" in order to host a successful FSNC. It was always a mystery to me that year-before-last (Americas Match year), that a shoot-off was required to fairly determine who would receive Gold medals for the daily matches, yet not for who would receive the Silver or Bronze? Either exclude F-Class from them; or, expand the shoot-offs? For me, I'd just soon be able to put the toes in the pool a little earlier in the day.

Dan

 

[dannyjbiggs]

All good points to be considered.

If we can't rant among ourselves where can we rant....?

May I be so bold as to suggest that you might want to send your thoughts and these ideas to NRA Competitions Division?

Dennis Willing is the new Director of Competitions and I know that he would very much like to hear what you have to say.

Unlike his predecessor, Dennis is "one of us". He is a competitive shooter (High Power, Pistol and PPC - "Distinguished" in all of those disciplines) and his heart is with the competitors. He will want to hear what you have to say.

Done DE...e-mail sent to Dennis recommending he monitor this thread. Sorry you were being vented on for the 2016 , while all the while you were bringing great benefit to us for the more immediate 2014 Perry matches.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[DirComp]

Thank you John and Danny for connecting me with this topic. I have registered so that I can monitor things and the direction they are taking.

Be advised that I have little time in the day to do this monitoring but I will make every effort to keep in touch. Please bear with me.

I am very open to your ideas and to your communication with me.

As John said, I am a competitor and have been so for about 35 years. Although I know that I cannot please everyone, I will do everything I can to make things better for competitors. I have been known to get down in the dirt and shoot along side of you so that I've "walked a mile in your shoes" so don't be surprised if you find me doing that someplace in the future.

 

[lperry63]

Hi Dennis,

I think the issue most F Class shooters are dealing with is the fear that a move to Camp Perry will change the format and flow of the F Class Nationals. As already mentioned, we are used to shooting 3 20-round strings a day. Those of us who shot in the NRA long range matches at Camp Perry in 2012 or 2013 found the "traditional" format of one 20 shot string a day followed by a team match and a shootoff to be less desirable, particularly for those shooters who were not on teams. The focus on team shooting also caused an issue last year when the initial format of the Mid-Range match at Camp Perry was announced and it counted the team match score into the individual aggregate. I know that was changed before the competition, but it should never have been setup that way from the beginning.

In my opinion, I think the NRA has been making a lot of decisions about F Class shooting without very much input from F Class shooters. I know you have some on the various committees, but you seem to cater only to their opinions. For example, the decision to eliminate the 600yd matches from the F Class National Championships. It seemed that was pushed down our throats without any input from the majority of shooters. I think we're about to get a new FTR team captain voted in by a very small number of people without getting input from anyone outside the NRA committee and current US Team. This sport should be inclusive, not exclusive.

Whether the actions and choices of the NRA committees are good or bad, the fact that they are being made in a vacuum is concerning.

Laura

 

[Ont0001]

I was fortunate enough to participate in the Perry F Class Matches in 2012 and the America's Match (alongside).
As a shooter ,I found the range enjoyable(challenging),beautiful facilities,helpful staff and appreciated it being a closer drive than the Connaught Range in Ottawa.
It was however a very trying experience ; to take what seemed 12 plus hours to shoot 2 individual matches to conclusion.
(4 matches for qualifiers and 1 at days end for winning position).(I think I understand the "whys" behind it, hopefully minimizing the effect of a "lucky draw squadding" but am open for correction.)
It is a different format that what I've gotten used to but I try and keep an open mind and be flexible enough to adapt.
(hey I like string shooting, somewhat of a change from the pairs we shoot up here)

Quite honestly though, with a scheduled 3 yardage /3 match day for the Short Range Nats, I cannot imagine how they
would be able to keep up this format and finish in daylight, especially if the F'ers show up in numbers (which I think could be the case....)
Anyways....I have tried to get the word out to the Canadian Fer's and linked them to this discussion. Schedule wise between our own Provincials,Regionals and Nationals ... it might be just a good fit for at least some Ontario competitors.
I've "inked it" on my calendar and hope to see some familiar faces there.
Regards
Gord O

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Hi Dennis,

I think the issue most F Class shooters are dealing with is the fear that a move to Camp Perry will change the format and flow of the F Class Nationals. As already mentioned, we are used to shooting 3 20-round strings a day. Those of us who shot in the NRA long range matches at Camp Perry in 2012 or 2013 found the "traditional" format of one 20 shot string a day followed by a team match and a shootoff to be less desirable, particularly for those shooters who were not on teams. The focus on team shooting also caused an issue last year when the initial format of the Mid-Range match at Camp Perry was announced and it counted the team match score into the individual aggregate. I know that was changed before the competition, but it should never have been setup that way from the beginning.

In my opinion, I think the NRA has been making a lot of decisions about F Class shooting without very much input from F Class shooters. I know you have some on the various committees, but you seem to cater only to their opinions. For example, the decision to eliminate the 600yd matches from the F Class National Championships. It seemed that was pushed down our throats without any input from the majority of shooters. I think we're about to get a new FTR team captain voted in by a very small number of people without getting input from anyone outside the NRA committee and current US Team. This sport should be inclusive, not exclusive.

Whether the actions and choices of the NRA committees are good or bad, the fact that they are being made in a vacuum is concerning.

Laura

I want to echo Laura's sentiment and add a few thoughts of my own.

(echo)
Driving all the way from south Texas to Port Clinton to shoot 4 strings over a period of 4 days is a non-starter with me. I love shooting and I like to hang around and talk with people between shooting, but I love shooting. Three strings a day is a nice pace. Did I mention that I love shooting?
(end of echo)

I am not overly fond of switching yards lines during the day, Ok, I hate it. I would suggest to not go to an 800/900/1000 format. Leave everything at 1000 yards. The last time I was at Camp Perry (2005), going from one line to another was an adventure if you did not use the road at Viale. Carting Service Rifle equipment is one thing, trucking F-class equipment is another. We would need hovercrafts or tracked vehicles, not carts to move our equipment. And if we get hit by rain...

I also understand about committees making decisions without consulting the members; sometimes you have to do that to move forward, but sometimes you need to talk with the members to at least find out what they are thinking/seeing/gripping about. The NRA is very monolithic when it comes to competitions, in my experience, and that does turn off people at times.

 

[Gun Guy]

When will registration be available and what website is the registration available at? Thanks!

 

[falconpilot]

I'd like to speak up and say that I personally believe that if the 2013 Mid-range championships are any kind of reflection at all, that the matches at Camp Perry are improving in leaps and bounds if what everyone is saying about 2012 is correct. I found last years matches to be as well run, as a matter of fact, as well run as any match in which I've shot. If 2012 was a bad year, 2013 match was ran very well, then I have high expectations for 2014.

 

[oldguy65]

Have you heard for sure that they are going to run 4 man teams? last year they ran 2 man teams for the nationals.

 

[XTR]

I'd like to speak up and say that I personally believe that if the 2013 Mid-range championships are any kind of reflection at all, that the matches at Camp Perry are improving in leaps and bounds if what everyone is saying about 2012 is correct. I found last years matches to be as well run, as a matter of fact, as well run as any match in which I've shot. If 2012 was a bad year, 2013 match was ran very well, then I have high expectations for 2014.

We need to move this off of the Mid Range NC thread. The concerns are not about the Midrange championships.

There are issues with moving the FCNC at Camp Perry that go beyond how it is run, the format is also at issue.

The matches in 2012 were run as intended for the way that Camp Perry runs matches. If I recall from the 2013 schedule there were still only 4 long range matches scheduled over four days. I don't care how well it's run, it's still a 5 day road trip to shoot 80 shots for record. We typically shoot 100 in an average match weekend. One 20 shot match a day on two days and one day with two with shootoffs to determine daily match winners, and as Danny Biggs pointed out, that's only for the gold medal, silver and bronze will go to the 2nd and 3rd overall scores, which based on what I saw can definitely be decided by the relay draw if they don't take the effort to seed the relays. I watched championship level shooters drop one point for 20 shots in one relay and 20+ in another.

None of my sling and irons friends has commented that long range was run any differently than in the past. It still took till 1300 to shoot one match.

Deciding the FCNC that way is not what I would call ideal and when it comes to aggregate leaves a lot to the luck of the draw on relays. Either adopt the current FCNC format and shoot 3x15 for two days and 2x20 on day three or shoot 2x20 for three days and seed the squadding after the first day and squad down from the top starting with HM and ending with MM on the first day. The issue is that will never happen if F class is rolled into the HP shoot, and considering how the attendance is dropping and the space on the range I would bet that the NRA wants the F class entry fees during that week. As a minimum they should seed the first day based on classification and the subsequent days should be seeded from agg to date.

I understood that there was a meeting to discuss the matches after the 2012 event. I had to leave but I did make a comment to Ricky Hunt before I left about the issues squadding Open and TR. If they got it right last yr then maybe he delivered the message and it was heard. Then again if there were only 7 people there it may have been hard to tell.

How many F class shooters showed up for the long range portion of the program in 2013? It was the same week as the FCNC and the FCWC in Raton. I doubt there was much.