F-Class @ Camp Perry - 2015
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falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
What better place than a Nationals to get your feet wet?
Just because a high master won a few events this year doesn't mean that they have more rights to shoot than a lower classified shooter. I think it's important that we don't miss this point in whatever we do. The last thing we need or want is division amoung our ranks and that's exactly what we'll get if all this starts.
Just because a high master won a few events this year doesn't mean that they have more rights to shoot than a lower classified shooter. I think it's important that we don't miss this point in whatever we do. The last thing we need or want is division amoung our ranks and that's exactly what we'll get if all this starts.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
falconpilot said:
Right, it's a great place to learn how to pull targets.
great discussion, my .02:
1. F-Class may be growing, but it's still a pretty tiny sport. If you are trying to grow it, the last thing you want to do is put restrictions on participation. As of today, there just aren't enough competitors to worry about regional qualifications, invite-only events, etc. We should have an open-invite policy to all our matches AND we should be looking to make them exciting events! Exciting events have more people, not less...
2. I suggest separating the Long Range and Mid-Range discussion (and they should be held on different schedules):
a. there are very few long range facilities capable of handling a nationals and this isn't going to change...it is what is.
b. there are (hopefully?) more 600 yard facilities that can handle a large number of shooters. If so, this can be where more ranges can get involved.
3. We should not under-estimate how the quality of the range and the personnel running it impact the shooter experience. Do some of these smaller ranges have the facilities and personnel to provide a first-class experience?
4. Let's talk sponsorship. Do you think potential corporate sponsors would prefer a larger event or a smaller event? Will prizes they contribute be bigger with more people or less? Prizes add to the buzz of an event and we want as many sponsors and as many prizes as possible right? Then it needs to be a well-attended event.
Bottom Line: go BIG or go home. ;D
p.s. my wife is the one egging me on to say all this nonsense!
1. F-Class may be growing, but it's still a pretty tiny sport. If you are trying to grow it, the last thing you want to do is put restrictions on participation. As of today, there just aren't enough competitors to worry about regional qualifications, invite-only events, etc. We should have an open-invite policy to all our matches AND we should be looking to make them exciting events! Exciting events have more people, not less...
2. I suggest separating the Long Range and Mid-Range discussion (and they should be held on different schedules):
a. there are very few long range facilities capable of handling a nationals and this isn't going to change...it is what is.
b. there are (hopefully?) more 600 yard facilities that can handle a large number of shooters. If so, this can be where more ranges can get involved.
3. We should not under-estimate how the quality of the range and the personnel running it impact the shooter experience. Do some of these smaller ranges have the facilities and personnel to provide a first-class experience?
4. Let's talk sponsorship. Do you think potential corporate sponsors would prefer a larger event or a smaller event? Will prizes they contribute be bigger with more people or less? Prizes add to the buzz of an event and we want as many sponsors and as many prizes as possible right? Then it needs to be a well-attended event.
Bottom Line: go BIG or go home. ;D
p.s. my wife is the one egging me on to say all this nonsense!
jkl
Silver $$ Contributor
Not an F class shooter still using a sling but I have watched the Harris family tear it up.
The people that work the pits Jack Arnold, Rick Curtis and Richard.
Peter Church making the targets.
Jim Hahn for doing anything that needs to be done.
Mid, Michelle, Nancy, Matt and the countless people that make the matches at Ben Avery go smooth as silk never get the thanks they deserve.
It is always the same group that step up to make all of you that travel to the range to have a great time and shoot believe it is easy.
John
The people that work the pits Jack Arnold, Rick Curtis and Richard.
Peter Church making the targets.
Jim Hahn for doing anything that needs to be done.
Mid, Michelle, Nancy, Matt and the countless people that make the matches at Ben Avery go smooth as silk never get the thanks they deserve.
It is always the same group that step up to make all of you that travel to the range to have a great time and shoot believe it is easy.
John
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
KT said:
Just because we live close doesn't negate the validity of the argument.
And 10 hours to Raton isn't really close.
Hi everyone,
This is the first time I have been on this site and just finished reading all the comments about the FCNC and Mid-Range Nationals. Eric Stecker's remarks at the meeting in Phoenix made as much sense as anyone about smaller ranges being able to host the Nationals. Any range that gets an opportunity to hold the Nationals should think of it as an honor.
I think splitting F Open and FTR and being able to use small ranges and moving around the country will allow more shooters to compete without having to travel thousands of miles. In some cases people just cannot afford to travel that far or spend that much time away from work and family. It gives an advantage to many shooters and helps the sport to grow.
Having the Mid-range at a separate location would allow more ranges that have only 600 yards to host the Nationals. As of right now the Mid-range Nationals at Camp Perry were attended only by about 60 people. I would suspect that would grow but for now any range that has 25 points could hold the Mid-range Nationals without separating FO and FTR. We will see what the attendance will be at Phoenix in 2015.
NRA has more Mid-range classified shooters than Long Range classified shooters. If we get a Mid-range Championship run by smaller clubs this will grow and they will have an opportunity to award each individual match rather than just the Aggregates which is what happened at Camp Perry.
The separation of FO and FTR would allow a 25 point range to have 100 FO and 100 FTR shooters which we did not have at Phoenix. Will also make more work for the range personnel. The Stat work is all I take care of and other people are in charge of the range work. Some of these comments are from me and others are Earl telling me other things to say - which is ok.
I know Lodi would love to have the FCNC again. They were held in 2008 and 2011 and they do require a lot of work and club members and we are ready to do it again if we get approval to hold another one.
Karin&Earl
This is the first time I have been on this site and just finished reading all the comments about the FCNC and Mid-Range Nationals. Eric Stecker's remarks at the meeting in Phoenix made as much sense as anyone about smaller ranges being able to host the Nationals. Any range that gets an opportunity to hold the Nationals should think of it as an honor.
I think splitting F Open and FTR and being able to use small ranges and moving around the country will allow more shooters to compete without having to travel thousands of miles. In some cases people just cannot afford to travel that far or spend that much time away from work and family. It gives an advantage to many shooters and helps the sport to grow.
Having the Mid-range at a separate location would allow more ranges that have only 600 yards to host the Nationals. As of right now the Mid-range Nationals at Camp Perry were attended only by about 60 people. I would suspect that would grow but for now any range that has 25 points could hold the Mid-range Nationals without separating FO and FTR. We will see what the attendance will be at Phoenix in 2015.
NRA has more Mid-range classified shooters than Long Range classified shooters. If we get a Mid-range Championship run by smaller clubs this will grow and they will have an opportunity to award each individual match rather than just the Aggregates which is what happened at Camp Perry.
The separation of FO and FTR would allow a 25 point range to have 100 FO and 100 FTR shooters which we did not have at Phoenix. Will also make more work for the range personnel. The Stat work is all I take care of and other people are in charge of the range work. Some of these comments are from me and others are Earl telling me other things to say - which is ok.
I know Lodi would love to have the FCNC again. They were held in 2008 and 2011 and they do require a lot of work and club members and we are ready to do it again if we get approval to hold another one.
Karin&Earl
ohiodan
Gold $$ Contributor
Lots of good comments on the challenges that face the growing sport of F-Class. My thoughts below:
Military ranges such as Camp Perry & Butner are viable locations for the Nationals, Eastern locations help grow F-Class
Smaller ranges like Lodi, Wisconsin and Malvern, Ohio are also viable 25 target ranges for the MR Nationals or even the LR Nationals if the two disciplines are split. Both have dedicated groups of club members that would step up, with some help from the core group in Phoenix it would be a very successful event.
The challenge or running a successful F-Class Nationals is more about the team of people planning and running the match....consider bringing the core group of people from Ben Avery to help at every F-Class Nationals
Moving the Nationals around the country was supported by most on this forum, more importantly it was supported by Eric Stecker at the meeting in Phoenix. Eric Stecker has demonstrated the ability to help grow F-Class and has promoted the Berger match to the premier event in Long Range shooting! He is worth listening to on long term decisions.
I'll travel to wherever the Nationals are held, since 2011 I've made 5 trips to Raton and 5 trips to Phoenix. A total of 30,800 miles, not including travel after getting to the range. Not everyone is at a place in their life to travel that much and I've enjoyed shooting at both ranges. That said, lots of shooters that I compete against in the Midwest are good enough to compete at the National level. Most of them just can't afford to travel that far. Should we limit the growth of our sport by continuing to hold all of the Nationals so far from the high concentration of shooters in the East or Midwest?
As for the questions about sponsorship and sponsors participating if the Nationals were held at smaller ranges? My response is, if they will come to Raton....they will come anywhere.
Sponsors respond more to the buzz generated by the sport, the reason so many sponsors support the Berger match is because the match is promoted! Eric Stecker promotes the match! When he tells sponsors that he won't be satisfied until he has the best Long Range match in the country they believe him.
When F-Class has a dedicated group actually promoting the sport, sponsors will be more willing to participate.
Dan Pohlabel
F-TR Team USA
Team Sinclair
Military ranges such as Camp Perry & Butner are viable locations for the Nationals, Eastern locations help grow F-Class
Smaller ranges like Lodi, Wisconsin and Malvern, Ohio are also viable 25 target ranges for the MR Nationals or even the LR Nationals if the two disciplines are split. Both have dedicated groups of club members that would step up, with some help from the core group in Phoenix it would be a very successful event.
The challenge or running a successful F-Class Nationals is more about the team of people planning and running the match....consider bringing the core group of people from Ben Avery to help at every F-Class Nationals
Moving the Nationals around the country was supported by most on this forum, more importantly it was supported by Eric Stecker at the meeting in Phoenix. Eric Stecker has demonstrated the ability to help grow F-Class and has promoted the Berger match to the premier event in Long Range shooting! He is worth listening to on long term decisions.
I'll travel to wherever the Nationals are held, since 2011 I've made 5 trips to Raton and 5 trips to Phoenix. A total of 30,800 miles, not including travel after getting to the range. Not everyone is at a place in their life to travel that much and I've enjoyed shooting at both ranges. That said, lots of shooters that I compete against in the Midwest are good enough to compete at the National level. Most of them just can't afford to travel that far. Should we limit the growth of our sport by continuing to hold all of the Nationals so far from the high concentration of shooters in the East or Midwest?
As for the questions about sponsorship and sponsors participating if the Nationals were held at smaller ranges? My response is, if they will come to Raton....they will come anywhere.
Sponsors respond more to the buzz generated by the sport, the reason so many sponsors support the Berger match is because the match is promoted! Eric Stecker promotes the match! When he tells sponsors that he won't be satisfied until he has the best Long Range match in the country they believe him.
When F-Class has a dedicated group actually promoting the sport, sponsors will be more willing to participate.
Dan Pohlabel
F-TR Team USA
Team Sinclair
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
ohiodan said:
Gotta disagree with you on that point, Dan. ;D The rest is well taken.
Civilians access a military base at the pleasure of the C.O. Ask Dennis DeMille why he moved the Creedmoor Cup and CMP Games West from Camp Pendleton to Phoenix. Military bases are dicey at best. Military bases for major matches make me nervous in as much as the civilian access can be terminated with no recourse or reason. It would pretty much suck to have a pre-planned, prepaid trip cancelled due to the base denying access to civilians out of the blue.
I agree that an eastern location or two would help grow the sport. If the eastern guys want the nationals, build a range or two. Plain and simple. Yeah...it's a monumental task...I get it. So I say to the complainers put up or shut up, to use an old colloquialism.
More variety would be great but the truth of the matter is that 1000 yard ranges with enough firing points to handle 200+ shooters are scarce. It is a shame but it is a fact of life.
I would be the first to sign up at an eastern venue since shooting off grass is a real treat for us westerners that shoot in the dirt.
And all this fussing about travel is comical to watch....we spend thousands on rifles and scopes, thousands on accessories and ammo and then whine about spending a few hundred bucks on a once-a-year match. Really???
See you in Phoenix.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
You clearly miss the point. No one is whining about spending a couple hundred dollars. Most people only have so much vacation time, and it needs to be split between their love of shooting and family. A 5-10 days shooting event is long enough, but for everyone that does not live close to the range like you, we have to spend 4-6 days driving on top of shooting. It's clear that you haven't driven a couple thousand miles lately cause is cost way more than a " few hundred bucks"..
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
What I really like about Phoenix is the amenities. I have flown from San Antonio on Friday after work, shot Saturday and Sunday in Phoenix, and was back in SA Sunday night. Can't do that anywhere else.
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
falconpilot said:
Fly
It's faster and cheaper... and in Phoenix, there is plenty of good food, good hotels and lots of other stuff to do after the shooting is over. Raton, Perry, Lodi.....not so much.
Look both you guys are correct. I love Ben Avery and Phoenix but FP is correct it's a long damn way from Mississippi on the ground for a shooter with 2 weeks vacation to split between thanksgiving, Christmas grandbaby birthings . Sorry Mr Fahrquarson, Fclass ain't just for retired people anymore.Warren Dean said:
Some of us may never retire, especially if we keep shooting FClass. Let's just ask that who ever decide this think it through. I'd rather not fly. I'm afraid the TSA will steal my gun.
Still I'm glad Perry is out.
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
Fly? And have a bunch of monkeys play football with my gun case between plane changes only to somehow lose it, be strip search by a TSA agent wearing a turbin who can't speak English, and then set between the two fattest, smelliest people on Earth? I'll pass..
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