Elk
- Thread starter model 12 toby
- Start date
th82457
Silver $$ Contributor
The margin for error on these long range shots gets magnified exponentially beyond 300 yards under hunting conditions due to wind, elevation, rest stability, range estimation and trajectory knowledge, shooter ability, etc.. In addition, elk are very tough and bullet energy or the lack of becomes a real issue beyond roughly 450 yards with most common rifles that hunters are willing to carry in elk country. There is a difference between hitting your target and making a humane kill without a long tracking job or worse a lost animal. I doubt you will find many legitimate outfitters who encourage their clients to shoot at some of the distances suggested by some responders here. This is a shooting forum, but save the 1,000 yd. shots for paper.
I never knew bullet energy killed animals.
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
In my simple way of thinking, there are two things that actually kill the animal.
1. Energy expended inside the animal
2. Blood loss from bleed out. Inside or outside.
I'm sweeping a lot under the rug for brevity, but there it is.
The bottom line is that if you put an appropriate bullet through a kill zone, they're dead. Can't shoot groundhogs with solids. Can't shoot Cape Buffalo with V-Maxs.
1. Energy expended inside the animal
2. Blood loss from bleed out. Inside or outside.
I'm sweeping a lot under the rug for brevity, but there it is.
The bottom line is that if you put an appropriate bullet through a kill zone, they're dead. Can't shoot groundhogs with solids. Can't shoot Cape Buffalo with V-Maxs.
Ya could shoot cape buffalo with vmax, and g-dogs with solids, I would advise against the practice. I have been following this for a bit, and have been keeping my opinion to myself, but enough is enough. Those who take those outrageous long shot at game really should spend more time behind there rifle, regardless of how good they think they are, or actually are. Ya owe it to the game you pursue to dispatch them cleanly and humanely, regardless if its an elk or ground hog. We as hunters should know our personal limitation, and not exceed it, even if it means not punching a tag. If you do happen to take that long shot and wound the critter, punch your tag, go home, and reflect on all the time you should have spent at the range. Good luck, good hunting, and good times.
I can agree with a few of you, about some of this long range hunting.
YOUR RIGHT 99% of hunters like you have no business shooting at animals over 100 yards with-out support and over 300 yards with support.
You have issues with dedicating your selves to excellence in training. Me I shot over 450 rounds in the last 3 weeks thru just one of my rifles. Training, practice, dedication... I know your just not sure what that means. Going to a match with an attitude that "oh hell i got a few sighters who cares where the CBS goes" Isn't going to cut it when your REALLY learning to dope for a one shot vital hit.
Sure I compete most guys who compete in WI know me, and I'm meeting guys nation wide in the Precision Rifle Series matches held all across the country. I started competing to get more practice, practice for what? er killing shit way way out there.
Boy and when you dedicate yourself, invest in the proper equipment and continue to grow over the years, boy is it amazing where you can go. When i started I used factory stuff, slapped on a bipod and a drop chart out to 500 yards. 1st year a one shot buck at 423y. 2nd year saw some upgrades and a one shot buck at 609y, (oh and that one scored in the 160's), which is why some of you guys are haters
) Third year went to WY and collected a one shot deer at 526, and one shot goat at 300, Adding 2 WI does over 600 yards. Well some more upgrades and CO had me on a 2 shot Mule deer at 826 yards both solid hits. That year my partner got a 900 yard bull elk. yes we hunt in pairs. designated spotter shooter. Two guns trained on the animal so we can mitigate a bad hit instantly if required, until now it never was required. The year after that followed up with a 1180 deer by my partner, and a 840 elk by his brother in law, That year I took my light gun thru the thicket on the track of a good bull and killed him at 30 yards after bumping him out of his bed. Well last year, I culminated the years of dedication and shooting practice into a 1202 yard bull, unfortunately I had no partner with me, and no way to close the distance due to terrain limitations. I had to do this on my own. What I did have was time and a feeding bull on a far away mountain in open terrain and 12" of snow. It didn't go exactly as I had planned but with 3 shots, 1st round hit, second round called miss and a 3rd that dropped him where he stood. gratuitous pic link)))
http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img_hunting/2011_Colorado_Elk_Hunt-081.jpg
I will even admit in that time frame of hunting I declared 2 animals that I had clean misses on (and I can tell you why). Judge me on that if you wish, but then lets hear your string of kills/misses over the last half dozen years.
Of the nine animals that I personally shot above I fired 12 shots to collect them. In reality I fired closer to 10,000 rounds in preparation for those 12 shots.
I do it my way, you do it your way, but this post wasn't to debate the reality of LRH. It was a simple guestion needing a simple answer. I would also prefer that you all remain "close quarter lead slingers"
I don't need any newbies slinging lead half assed around the country side giving the good guys like me a foul name. But if you can truly dedicate yourself to a pursuit that you evolve in to, give me a call and I will get you pointed in the right direction.
YOUR RIGHT 99% of hunters like you have no business shooting at animals over 100 yards with-out support and over 300 yards with support.
You have issues with dedicating your selves to excellence in training. Me I shot over 450 rounds in the last 3 weeks thru just one of my rifles. Training, practice, dedication... I know your just not sure what that means. Going to a match with an attitude that "oh hell i got a few sighters who cares where the CBS goes" Isn't going to cut it when your REALLY learning to dope for a one shot vital hit.
Sure I compete most guys who compete in WI know me, and I'm meeting guys nation wide in the Precision Rifle Series matches held all across the country. I started competing to get more practice, practice for what? er killing shit way way out there.
Boy and when you dedicate yourself, invest in the proper equipment and continue to grow over the years, boy is it amazing where you can go. When i started I used factory stuff, slapped on a bipod and a drop chart out to 500 yards. 1st year a one shot buck at 423y. 2nd year saw some upgrades and a one shot buck at 609y, (oh and that one scored in the 160's), which is why some of you guys are haters
) Third year went to WY and collected a one shot deer at 526, and one shot goat at 300, Adding 2 WI does over 600 yards. Well some more upgrades and CO had me on a 2 shot Mule deer at 826 yards both solid hits. That year my partner got a 900 yard bull elk. yes we hunt in pairs. designated spotter shooter. Two guns trained on the animal so we can mitigate a bad hit instantly if required, until now it never was required. The year after that followed up with a 1180 deer by my partner, and a 840 elk by his brother in law, That year I took my light gun thru the thicket on the track of a good bull and killed him at 30 yards after bumping him out of his bed. Well last year, I culminated the years of dedication and shooting practice into a 1202 yard bull, unfortunately I had no partner with me, and no way to close the distance due to terrain limitations. I had to do this on my own. What I did have was time and a feeding bull on a far away mountain in open terrain and 12" of snow. It didn't go exactly as I had planned but with 3 shots, 1st round hit, second round called miss and a 3rd that dropped him where he stood. gratuitous pic link)))http://www.centershotrifles.com/gallery/img_hunting/2011_Colorado_Elk_Hunt-081.jpg
I will even admit in that time frame of hunting I declared 2 animals that I had clean misses on (and I can tell you why). Judge me on that if you wish, but then lets hear your string of kills/misses over the last half dozen years.
Of the nine animals that I personally shot above I fired 12 shots to collect them. In reality I fired closer to 10,000 rounds in preparation for those 12 shots.
I do it my way, you do it your way, but this post wasn't to debate the reality of LRH. It was a simple guestion needing a simple answer. I would also prefer that you all remain "close quarter lead slingers"
I don't need any newbies slinging lead half assed around the country side giving the good guys like me a foul name. But if you can truly dedicate yourself to a pursuit that you evolve in to, give me a call and I will get you pointed in the right direction.
Me for one.
One doesn't have any business IMO of taking a LR shot unless he has practiced with that gear in field conditions at distances further than what he considering and in conditions worse than he finds himself in that hunting situation.
Enough practice, skill, and confidence to know what his rig and himself are capable in various conditions.
I don't pretend to be a"ninja wind reader," so I am sure not opposed to taking a sighter shot if needed to confirm if I have my dope right. If, the animal spooks-Fine!
At least I know that when I put my crosshair on that critter, I am convinced he is going to die from a vital shot.
Never killed anything at distance with a rifle 8)
But, I have picked up a Big Boy rifle recently (For those of you who know me well, don't pass out
).
No, not my teaching/fun rifle: 6.5x47L, but rather a 338 Snipe-Tac.
Well, I have a 375 Snipe-Tac specialty pistol too, but that is a different story ;D
Jim, It has been too long since we visited last-Hope all is good with you.
That XP you built me is still shooting awesome!
I hunt with various weapons at various distances, depending on how I want to hunt.
Each takes a different skill set and has it own unique challenges.
I am totally against slob hunters, whether they hunt at short, medium, or LR.
Good thread with good comments.
I have some really nice front rests, that make shooting easy, but I shoot more from field positions than anything else.
One doesn't have any business IMO of taking a LR shot unless he has practiced with that gear in field conditions at distances further than what he considering and in conditions worse than he finds himself in that hunting situation.
Enough practice, skill, and confidence to know what his rig and himself are capable in various conditions.
I don't pretend to be a"ninja wind reader," so I am sure not opposed to taking a sighter shot if needed to confirm if I have my dope right. If, the animal spooks-Fine!
At least I know that when I put my crosshair on that critter, I am convinced he is going to die from a vital shot.
Never killed anything at distance with a rifle 8)
But, I have picked up a Big Boy rifle recently (For those of you who know me well, don't pass out
).No, not my teaching/fun rifle: 6.5x47L, but rather a 338 Snipe-Tac.
Well, I have a 375 Snipe-Tac specialty pistol too, but that is a different story ;D
Jim, It has been too long since we visited last-Hope all is good with you.
That XP you built me is still shooting awesome!
I hunt with various weapons at various distances, depending on how I want to hunt.
Each takes a different skill set and has it own unique challenges.
I am totally against slob hunters, whether they hunt at short, medium, or LR.
Good thread with good comments.
I have some really nice front rests, that make shooting easy, but I shoot more from field positions than anything else.
GSPV said:
Jim See is right on ---- there is a difference in shooting out to 250-300 with todays rifles, scopes etc.
and shooting beyond. the difference is not in the capability of the properly chosen rifle, caliber, bullets, crono, range finder, etc. ---- the difference is in learning howto use what is availalbe and that takes two things,
Commitment!! and practice, practice, practice at the longer ranges not at 100yd.- pds at 400-600 are common hits big game is bigger.
i was shooting crows at 200-300 with a high wall at 14-17 yr old, then in basic qualifing experienced 600yd for the first time, with m1 and peeps, scored 249 of 250 with 16v at 600 (20 shots prone, no tripod,using sling) - do not consider the limitations of inexperience to be the limitations of of the game,
follow Jim's example as others have, talk to Bobby Hart, take his classes if you are really interested in learning.
Bob
and shooting beyond. the difference is not in the capability of the properly chosen rifle, caliber, bullets, crono, range finder, etc. ---- the difference is in learning howto use what is availalbe and that takes two things,
Commitment!! and practice, practice, practice at the longer ranges not at 100yd.- pds at 400-600 are common hits big game is bigger.
i was shooting crows at 200-300 with a high wall at 14-17 yr old, then in basic qualifing experienced 600yd for the first time, with m1 and peeps, scored 249 of 250 with 16v at 600 (20 shots prone, no tripod,using sling) - do not consider the limitations of inexperience to be the limitations of of the game,
follow Jim's example as others have, talk to Bobby Hart, take his classes if you are really interested in learning.
Bob
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
As I said in my post, it wasn't going to apply to everyone. There are a lot of folks that do not have a long range range to proactive at regularly. I am, for example, limited to 200 yards, with 300 once a month.
There is also a question of risk tolerance. How much are you willing to take on? E.g., even Jim missed twice.
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. Just raising questions for the group to think on.
There is also a question of risk tolerance. How much are you willing to take on? E.g., even Jim missed twice.
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. Just raising questions for the group to think on.
I admit Jim See is correct, with the right practice, Long shots can be regularly done. I believe the problem I have observed on most online forums and absolutely on the tv "expert" shows is this. They advertise that with the right equipment you can go out and just do it. Buy our gun our ammo and our scope and its just that easy....... Well it aint just that easy it takes ALOT of in field shooting to be able to make kill shots on the first shot at distance. I don't fault anyone for taking long shots if the time is put in. But the way the "experts" I mentioned above do their advertising is an injustice to the animals being hunted. I don't personally encourage people to shoot futher then they are comfortable. No matter what distance it is. I believe if someone pratices ALOT and is comfortable with their equipment then great things are possible.
Just my humble opinion.
Just my humble opinion.
Totally agree on the practice part.
Good rig with all the bells and whistles can still end up with a miss or wounded animal the hunter shoots beyond their ability.
It is a package deal, good shooting skill in field conditions, user friendly rig, and the conditions that will allow you to stretch it out if needed.
Good rig with all the bells and whistles can still end up with a miss or wounded animal the hunter shoots beyond their ability.
It is a package deal, good shooting skill in field conditions, user friendly rig, and the conditions that will allow you to stretch it out if needed.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Addressing the OP, I wouldn't go elk hunting with less than my 7mmRM, and I'd push heavies. That said, I don't live where I can hunt them all season and pass on less than ideal shots. Personally I'd love to get the opportunity to try my 45-70 on elk.
If you have a broadside shot and can place one in the vitals with nothing but maybe a rib in the way then pretty much any reasonable hunting caliber will work, but if you are presented with a quartering shot that is going to make you shoot through the shoulder/chest or put it in back by the last rib quartering away then there is a whole lot of dense material there to stop your bullet before it gets to anything vital, so take enough gun or be ready to pass.
As to long range hunting:
What you do is up to you, but if you spend enough time shooting at long range then you will understand that sometimes there are conditions that you just can't read/see and your bullet ends up 12 inches from where you thought it would be. I've put close to 1500 rounds down range this yr at 1000 yds shooting F-TR. I'm pretty comfortable with my wind reading and shooting skill, for me 500 yards is about all I'm willing to try in a hunting scenario, then again I hunt in the east so opportunities for shots much beyond 200 are pretty rare.
If you have a broadside shot and can place one in the vitals with nothing but maybe a rib in the way then pretty much any reasonable hunting caliber will work, but if you are presented with a quartering shot that is going to make you shoot through the shoulder/chest or put it in back by the last rib quartering away then there is a whole lot of dense material there to stop your bullet before it gets to anything vital, so take enough gun or be ready to pass.
As to long range hunting:
What you do is up to you, but if you spend enough time shooting at long range then you will understand that sometimes there are conditions that you just can't read/see and your bullet ends up 12 inches from where you thought it would be. I've put close to 1500 rounds down range this yr at 1000 yds shooting F-TR. I'm pretty comfortable with my wind reading and shooting skill, for me 500 yards is about all I'm willing to try in a hunting scenario, then again I hunt in the east so opportunities for shots much beyond 200 are pretty rare.
There is another thread on here where some think its ok to go elk hunting with a 6mm 100 gr bullet.
I have never been on a guided hunt but wonder what the min caliber is required by the outfitters/ guides
And talk about neck shots, 800 Yard shots etc.
I hope our Less experienced readers/hunters don't take these comments
to the woods
John H.
I have never been on a guided hunt but wonder what the min caliber is required by the outfitters/ guides
And talk about neck shots, 800 Yard shots etc.
I hope our Less experienced readers/hunters don't take these comments
to the woods
John H.
An elk is a huge target. To test your long range abilities try shooting long range prairie dogs or ground squirrels. Or shooting high power or f-class. For every elk cleanly killed at 800 yards I'll bet 5 or more are crippled. Almost every time I've been elk hunting I've seen guys banging away at elk at unbelieveable ranges, normally on the next mountain over. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Albany Mountain
Silver $$ Contributor
What you don't get to see very often are videos showing elk crippled by poor shots, poor decisions, poor shooters, and bad choice of calibers. This is probably the norm for these long range shots, not one shot kills.model 12 toby said:just curious. wondered what caliber people use on some videos I watched and your thoughts. personally I'll probably never get a chance to even hunt elk. seen grey bull precision video with wayne van zwoll taking down one with 6.5cr at 606 yards. guess that kinda answers my question. I shoot some at 770 yards out to 960 maybe once a month if I get a chance. I know what your talking about and the difficulty in a shot like that. that damn wind.. I'd not try a shot like that myself cause I wouldn't feel comfortable yet. like I said probably wont get to.
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