E-Targets for F-Class

[Joe Wade]

I am in favor of e-targets acting similar to real pits pulling target, it only makes sense to maintain some level of fairness and sameness. If this cannot be done, then we must petition the NRA to separate e-target scores from pits pulled targets. A delay is only part of it.
A bigger issue is to prevent machine gunning an e-target. The Silver Mountain e-targets I have shot, will allow a shot to be scored during the delay period. They will also immediately display the shot value, not the shot spotter, but it will display the shot value. If it comes up an X, there is little risk to just take another quick shot during the delay and worst case receive a 10. They should not disply a shot value durring the delay. E-targets should mark a shot during the delay as a miss, just like it would be if you shoot while your target is down in the pits.

If records have been set on E-targets that don't mimic the real thing, they should be separated just like service rifle, match rifle, f-open and f-tr are all separate.

Good luck Scott and Jadde on keeping this thread civil.

 

[Scott Harris]

Regarding the E-target delay survey I posted yesterday. We quickly overran the surveymonkey (free) limit of 100 responses. So, I have set up this link to collect additional responses:
https://survey.sogosurvey.com/r/iwFDrK

 

[Jennb]

A petition got the F Class Mid Range Nationals changed to all 600 yards. Soo, lets get down to making E targets as acceptable as possible to the majority and figure out what it takes to get it implemented with the NRA. It seems the majority would agree on a 7 second delay more than likely, also that plotting should be done manually if so desired and not by the etarget. That is very closely simulating what we have been accustomed too.

One other question for me would be what to do with scorekeepers and shooters that try to get by with a crossfire. That is even a really big question without the etarget but now maybe we are getting closer to catching them. It is still the human scorekeepers job to know if their shooter fired a shot and to have the honesty, integrity and courage to call them out on it. I know occassionally something might cause a target to not read a shot but that is a range officer decision. No crossfires on other targets then they decide how to handle it.

Lets shoot these things, figure it out and have some fun.

 

[Scott Harris]

A petition got the F Class Mid Range Nationals changed to all 600 yards. Soo, lets get down to making E targets as acceptable as possible to the majority and figure out what it takes to get it implemented with the NRA. It seems the majority would agree on a 7 second delay more than likely, also that plotting should be done manually if so desired and not by the etarget. That is very closely simulating what we have been accustomed too.

One other question for me would be what to do with scorekeepers and shooters that try to get by with a crossfire. That is even a really big question without the etarget but now maybe we are getting closer to catching them. It is still the human scorekeepers job to know if their shooter fired a shot and to have the honesty, integrity and courage to call them out on it. I know occassionally something might cause a target to not read a shot but that is a range officer decision. No crossfires on other targets then they decide how to handle it.

Lets shoot these things, figure it out and have some fun.

Great comments Jenn. Regarding cross-fires, that is a problem separate and apart from e-targets. E-targets can actually help improve this problem and provide better accountability!

 

[Crow]

I'll play by whatever rules there are, but still think we're discussing a 'solution looking for a problem'. Any evidence that shooters using e-targets are winning matches and setting records by shooting faster than every seven seconds?

I took another swing at that spreadsheet I posted earlier, correlating 'division' with the competitors initials from the match report posted on the Bayou Rifles website, so now there's a way to filter Open/FTR/Sling. Also added an Average Shot Delay standard deviation column, thinking it might add to the picture. As before, only Shots For Record are included in the Average Shot Delay columns.

From what I've seen, shooting really fast, even on a good day for it, doesn't guarantee winning a match or setting a National record. It's probably almost as hard to do well as reading the wind is, but it's easy to get burned and I'm guessing you'd wear a barrel out much faster than you would shooting at a normal pace (whatever that standard may be).

If seven seconds delay doesn't really slow anybody down much, why implement a delay at all? And to me, the plotting thing just seems spiteful.

Pair firing is the answer if you want to emphasize wind reading skills. Let's spend our energy getting that going.

 

[corning]

...but technology is making all of us better.

In reality, it's just keeping an aging population in the sport longer, as was the original premise behind f-class.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'll play by whatever rules there are, but still think we're discussing a 'solution looking for a problem'.

A better description of the use of E-targets themselves has likely never been written. It is the advent of E-targets that is changing how F-Class matches are fired, not the other way around. This is not a point that can be disputed. The ability to shoot without a delay is a HUGE advantage under the right conditions, and something that has NEVER been possible to do in F-Class with manually-pulled targets, no matter how fast your human puller is. So there is no need to justify a reason why E-Targets should have a 7- to 10-second delay, and only display the last shot - that is how F-Class matches have ALWAYS been fired. In fact, it works the other way around. It is the proponents of E-targets that need to justify why there should NOT be a delay and single shot display.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I'll play by whatever rules there are, but still think we're discussing a 'solution looking for a problem'. Any evidence that shooters using e-targets are winning matches and setting records by shooting faster than every seven seconds?

I took another swing at that spreadsheet I posted earlier, correlating 'division' with the competitors initials from the match report posted on the Bayou Rifles website, so now there's a way to filter Open/FTR/Sling. Also added an Average Shot Delay standard deviation column, thinking it might add to the picture. As before, only Shots For Record are included in the Average Shot Delay columns.

From what I've seen, shooting really fast, even on a good day for it, doesn't guarantee winning a match or setting a National record. It's probably almost as hard to do well as reading the wind is, but it's easy to get burned and I'm guessing you'd wear a barrel out much faster than you would shooting at a normal pace (whatever that standard may be).

If seven seconds delay doesn't really slow anybody down much, why implement a delay at all? And to me, the plotting thing just seems spiteful.

Pair firing is the answer if you want to emphasize wind reading skills. Let's spend our energy getting that going.

No delay gives me 7-10 seconds per shot to wait.......potentially it removes a huge time pressure which is an inherent part of the sport, decision making and strategy. Have a read of Eruds worlds write up and see what he was having to do to manage time in difficult conditions...a number of teams fell in the overall rankings for the teams events due to time management becoming a BIG issue...I'm sure they would have given a kidney to get the extra time no delay would have provided.

IMO fast shooting is a secondary issue.

Neds right - ETs should never have turned up without a delay.

Pair firing yip - keen for that it, answers a lot...I'm pursuing it on club days as its a yawn turning up, firing relatively quickly - picking and waiting for a specific condition...can't say I feel like I'm learning any more...to the extent I felt I was on manuals as I was forced to face more condition variables....I can often snap off 2-3 shots on ets before I stop where as I might have gotten one away on a manual...that adds up time wise.

 

[Elwood]

E targets shot without a delay is E class.
E targets shot in pairs or with a delay is F class.
It really is that simple.

 

[Boisblancboy]

Another advantage I’d like to point out without having a delay would be your form and conditioning. With no delay and being able to fire off your string faster than in the past helps prevent physical and mental fatigue. Those challenges are just part of the sport and, personally, fun to deal with.

I think removing some of the sports challenges hurts it more than it helps it.

 

[Erud]

Guys aren't getting younger but technology is making all of us better.

I don't think technology is making anyone better, it's just making the game easier.

 

[Crow]

Who owns equity in these E-target companies? Has become an old debate, but someone in industry keeps pushing it on F-class. Which F-class shooters are involved financially or benefiting from these companies? I'm sure I'll be getting beat up for asking the question.

I wish I was invested in it. Me, I'm just a consumer...

 

[243Mendoza]

...that is how F-Class matches have ALWAYS been fired. ...

One could make this same argument about the .308W, 30-06, and the 45-70 with iron sights and sling, but technology marches on...to the chagrin of some but is not F-Class on the forefront of technology?

 

[Archer]

A petition got the F Class Mid Range Nationals changed to all 600 yards. Soo, lets get down to making E targets as acceptable as possible to the majority and figure out what it takes to get it implemented with the NRA. It seems the majority would agree on a 7 second delay more than likely, also that plotting should be done manually if so desired and not by the etarget. That is very closely simulating what we have been accustomed too.

One other question for me would be what to do with scorekeepers and shooters that try to get by with a crossfire. That is even a really big question without the etarget but now maybe we are getting closer to catching them. It is still the human scorekeepers job to know if their shooter fired a shot and to have the honesty, integrity and courage to call them out on it. I know occassionally something might cause a target to not read a shot but that is a range officer decision. No crossfires on other targets then they decide how to handle it.

Lets shoot these things, figure it out and have some fun.

Regarding catching the crossfire shooters, I had a situation at the recent SWN where I sent a round downrange, my target goes down then comes up with 3 spotters on it. This was a first for me so I paused and looked back at my scorekeeper, but not a single shooter or scorekeeper on either side of me claimed to be missing a shot. So, my scorekeeper recorded the highest value spot and I continued...Honest, diligent, and attentive human scorekeepers will continue to be an important part of the sport even with ET's in my opinion.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Who owns equity in these E-target companies? Has become an old debate, but someone in industry keeps pushing it on F-class. Which F-class shooters are involved financially or benefiting from these companies? I'm sure I'll be getting beat up for asking the question.

As well you should, it's an inane question. Not only that but it's actually insulting in several ways.

You demean the effort and the talent that the various eTarget vendors have put in their product by insinuating that eTargets are a bad thing and should be eschewed, avoided and vilified.

You call into question the efforts, the expenditure and the work that Diffey and his team have put forth to test, install and support these targets. Don actually paid for several of these targets for testing out of his own pocket. The club only agreed to purchase the targets for all the firing points AFTER several had been paid for by Diffey to test.

You insult the shooters as a whole by insinuating that we are just being rolled over and taken advantage of by the super-secret Cabal Of ETarget Manufacturers which is working in super-secret-squirrel mode to displace all the target pullers and take their lunch money on the way out.

As was stated previously, Diffey has done phenomenal work bringing Bayou Rifles matches at the forefront of technology. By using this tech, we are able to have matches all the time and have them done quickly and comfortably. We have had lots of matches cancelled or delayed, or worse, interrupted because of rain or bad conditions. We've had people faint in the pits because of the heat, we've had people fall off the step in the pits, we've had people hit by spindles and so on. That's all in the past now, at Bayou.

If you miss travelling down 1000 yards on a trailer in the dust to go sit and pull targets for a couple of hours, I'm sure that you could easily find the equivalent misery closer to home. As for visiting with folks in the pits, I have news for you. Usually you can talk with the person manning the targets on either side of yours and that's about it. If you are talking, you're not giving good pit service. I have called down for target service far too many times to people who are in the pits talking.

Diffey and his team have built a great set up and we have close to 100 people registered for TSRA LR later this month. We had to cut off at that number based on past experience with manual targets. After this first big test, I am hopeful that we can handle a greater load of shooters in subsequent events, something that we could never do with manual targets and their attendant pit changes.

I was at Lodi the year they first introduced eTargets and I have been shooting at Bayou on the eTargets these last few months. They work very well. Extremely well. We are still finding our way at Bayou, adjusting to the eTargets, making adjustments, learning. All pioneers take incoming fire, we adjust and learn, learn and adjust.

Some may not like how Bayou does it and that's fine, but to even suggest that something is being done surreptitiously and for financial gain, that's disgusting.

 

[Jennb]

As well you should, it's an inane question. Not only that but it's actually insulting in several ways.

You demean the effort and the talent that the various eTarget vendors have put in their product by insinuating that eTargets are a bad thing and should be eschewed, avoided and vilified.

You call into question the efforts, the expenditure and the work that Diffey and his team have put forth to test, install and support these targets. Don actually paid for several of these targets for testing out of his own pocket. The club only agreed to purchase the targets for all the firing points AFTER several had been paid for by Diffey to test.

You insult the shooters as a whole by insinuating that we are just being rolled over and taken advantage of by the super-secret Cabal Of ETarget Manufacturers which is working in super-secret-squirrel mode to displace all the target pullers and take their lunch money on the way out.

As was stated previously, Diffey has done phenomenal work bringing Bayou Rifles matches at the forefront of technology. By using this tech, we are able to have matches all the time and have them done quickly and comfortably. We have had lots of matches cancelled or delayed, or worse, interrupted because of rain or bad conditions. We've had people faint in the pits because of the heat, we've had people fall off the step in the pits, we've had people hit by spindles and so on. That's all in the past now, at Bayou.

If you miss travelling down 1000 yards on a trailer in the dust to go sit and pull targets for a couple of hours, I'm sure that you could easily find the equivalent misery closer to home. As for visiting with folks in the pits, I have news for you. Usually you can talk with the person manning the targets on either side of yours and that's about it. If you are talking, you're not giving good pit service. I have called down for target service far too many times to people who are in the pits talking.

Diffey and his team have built a great set up and we have close to 100 people registered for TSRA LR later this month. We had to cut off at that number based on past experience with manual targets. After this first big test, I am hopeful that we can handle a greater load of shooters in subsequent events, something that we could never do with manual targets and their attendant pit changes.

I was at Lodi the year they first introduced eTargets and I have been shooting at Bayou on the eTargets these last few months. They work very well. Extremely well. We are still finding our way at Bayou, adjusting to the eTargets, making adjustments, learning. All pioneers take incoming fire, we adjust and learn, learn and adjust.

Some may not like how Bayou does it and that's fine, but to even suggest that something is being done surreptitiously and for financial gain, that's disgusting.

Bayou and Don have an done exceptional job of moving the matches and the club into the future of F class. They did not just throw up etargets and expect everything would go well. Anyone who is coming to the TSRA championship that has not shot any of Bayous club matches on etargets will be pleasantly surprised at the results of all the testing and work.

 

[DE-F-Open]

Every time an NRA representative has conducted a competitor meeting at the F-Class Nationals & the subject of a delay was voted on the over whelming majority of competitors present were in favor of a delay. I am in favor of a delay of 7-10 sec and showing the last shot only. Let's keep the sport as close to what it was intended to be when it started. ET's are a good idea for the future growth of the sport, but lets not change the basics conditions under which everyone competes.

Larry,

I just checked with the Chairman of the High Power Committee and with Aaron Farmer who runs the High Power section at NRA Competitions, both of whom confirm that the rules for the use of E-Targets for F-Class competitions now REQUIRE a 7-second delay for all registered tournaments.

This rule was adopted by the NRA Board of Directors in January and conforms with what the subcommittee recommended to the HP Committee over a year ago - Farmer says he is in the process of having all of the 2019 rules changes properly posted.

So - the 7-second rule applies to all F-Class e-target registered tournaments. Hope all of the manufacturers get the software changes to the clubs ASAP.

John

 

[GSS]

Larry,

I just checked with the Chairman of the High Power Committee and with Aaron Farmer who runs the High Power section at NRA Competitions, both of whom confirm that the rules for the use of E-Targets for F-Class competitions now REQUIRE a 7-second delay for all registered tournaments.

This rule was adopted by the NRA Board of Directors in January and conforms with what the subcommittee recommended to the HP Committee over a year ago - Farmer says he is in the process of having all of the 2019 rules changes properly posted.

So - the 7-second rule applies to all F-Class e-target registered tournaments. Hope all of the manufacturers get the software changes to the clubs ASAP.

John

I have been waiting patiently for Aaron to post the most recent NRA rules updates as well.
That man works his tail off for us often times in difficult situations...

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Larry,

I just checked with the Chairman of the High Power Committee and with Aaron Farmer who runs the High Power section at NRA Competitions, both of whom confirm that the rules for the use of E-Targets for F-Class competitions now REQUIRE a 7-second delay for all registered tournaments.

This rule was adopted by the NRA Board of Directors in January and conforms with what the subcommittee recommended to the HP Committee over a year ago - Farmer says he is in the process of having all of the 2019 rules changes properly posted.

So - the 7-second rule applies to all F-Class e-target registered tournaments. Hope all of the manufacturers get the software changes to the clubs ASAP.

John

I don't have a problem with that. Did you ask them where this was published as that is rather a big change from the current published rules in the May 2018 NRA High Power Rifle Rules booklet.

I just checked the NRAHQ.org website, and the current rules booklet is the same as I have, dated May 2018 and does not contain anything about this new rule.

 

[XTR]

Larry,

I just checked with the Chairman of the High Power Committee and with Aaron Farmer who runs the High Power section at NRA Competitions, both of whom confirm that the rules for the use of E-Targets for F-Class competitions now REQUIRE a 7-second delay for all registered tournaments.

This rule was adopted by the NRA Board of Directors in January and conforms with what the subcommittee recommended to the HP Committee over a year ago - Farmer says he is in the process of having all of the 2019 rules changes properly posted.

So - the 7-second rule applies to all F-Class e-target registered tournaments. Hope all of the manufacturers get the software changes to the clubs ASAP.

John

Well ain't that a daisy