Copper Removal Test: A Discovery 2

[Carl S]

I have used butches religiously and I don't get much fouling because I keep on top of it.a quality match grade barrel cleans up pretty easily as we know.i watched my friend cleaning his rifle one day and his cleaning regime isn't that often.he was using bore tech eliminator and I was surprised how well it was removing copper.i looked with the borescope periodically as he was patching the barrel out and it was removing fouling really good.ive been using it recently and I find it pretty good.

 

[deadidarren]

Piles of copper? But if it shoots good why worry about what it looks like?

I surely don't want to offend you or anyone else, but it sounds like this all about "how it looks" rather than an effort to address some performance problem with the rifle.

I've read where some assume that if there is some copper in the barrel the rifle will shoot poorly, and all kind of bad things are going to happen if the bore isn't stripped down to bare metal with aggressive chemical and methods.

This has not been my experience with a multitude of brands of rifles including some with aftermarket custom match barrels. If fact my experience has been the opposite in that such methods produced first shot flyers and required several rounds to re-establish consistent point of impact.

I totally agree with everything in this post

 

[K22]

I have used butches religiously and I don't get much fouling because I keep on top of it.a quality match grade barrel cleans up pretty easily as we know.i watched my friend cleaning his rifle one day and his cleaning regime isn't that often.he was using bore tech eliminator and I was surprised how well it was removing copper.i looked with the borescope periodically as he was patching the barrel out and it was removing fouling really good.ive been using it recently and I find it pretty good.

And Boretech products are not anywhere near as toxic if toxic at all.

 

[perazziguy]

My grand dad's early '80's vintage Ruger 22-250 heavy barrel is a copper mine. I used BoreTech copper remover to completely remove the copper. Verified with a Teslong. Use it exactly like the bottle says. It was shooting like poop!

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Rifle is lighter once the copper is gone,lol. Clean away,something to do during blizzards.

 

[K22]

"10-15 passes with a bronze brush soaked in alcohol. I think this accomplishes removing the copper solvent and then etching the remaining copper, making it more porous to dissolve away."

I won't comment on a poorly machined, non-lapped factory barrel. Maybe that's what you're working with...

But for a good custom, hand-lapped premium barrel, I think you can get away with way, way less brushing. Put some wet solvent patches through the bore when it's warm. Possibly brush 3-6 strokes if your barrel fouls badly. Then apply Wipe-Out, wait a minute (for bubbles to dissipate), then apply Wipe-Out a second time, then let it soak 3-4 hours.

I really don't want to say more because many people are convinced they need to do a lot of brushing. I had an AR factory barrel that did require that. But did my Krieger, Bartlein, and Brux barrels need lots of aggressive brushing? Heck no.

Yes I realize some famous guys have set world records brushing aggressively every 50 rounds. That CAN work. No question. But for a lot of good barrels, you may be able to get away with much less brushing. Way less. You may find: 1) You need fewer fouler shots; 2) You save a ton of time cleaning; 3) Your throat doesn't move as much; 4) Your crown stays perfect longer; 5) Your effective barrel life is extended.

I suggest starting conservatively and then see how it works.

I've found that a bronze brush significantly improves removing carbon, but I do not need to overdo it. In my factory rifle barrels about 8 passes seem to work well. My custom barrels, about 4 or so. To keep things simple, I just use 8 passes, refreshing the brush with solvent after the 4th pass. Before brushing, I run three solvent saturated patches down the bore to remove gross amounts of fouling.

After brushing, I pass 3 solvent saturated cotton flannel patches down the bore. The third patch comes out about 90% clean. After the prescribed dwell time for the solvent in the barrel, it takes about 4 - 6 patches to come out with a pristine clear white patch.

My final step is to pass three patches containing 3 very small drops of Hoppe's Gun Oil (mineral oil) down the bore to remove / neutralized / protect the bore. Before the first shot I run a dry patch down the bore to remove any oil.

I clean my rifles after every 50 to 60 shots these days. I do not shoot rapid fire sequences. Unless needed for a follow up shot while hunting, all my shots are out of a cool barrel. I shoot about 1,000 or so rounds of centerfire a year and spend a lot of time practicing at the range.

Firearm cleaning procedures are like noses, everyone has one. I submit that the bottom line is if what you're doing produces the performance results on target that you desire then there should be no reason to change or anguish over it. The simplistic procedure I described works for me since I have no first shot flyers and the point of impact remains consistent from a recently cleaned barrel.

 

[mikecr]

I don't believe that anything about copper fouling is 'good'.
Barrels shoot fine without it, and can shoot way worse with it.
And I don't believe over-cleaning concerns, as long as it's mild.
It just seems to me that people create cleaning problems through infrequent cleaning.
So I engage in mild cleaning after any use.

Whether I shoot once, or 50shts:
1. Soak barrel in Butches or Montana to loosen carbon
2. Patch out
3. Soak barrel in Sweets for copper
4. Nylon brush
5. Hydrogen peroxide soak & slow patch the Sweets out (poor man's wipeout)
6. Alcohol wash & dry
7. WS2 (tungsten) dry burnishing pre-foul

This is good enough, as most methods are, for lapped aftermarket barrels.
For rough factory barrels, I use Tubbs FinalFinish lapping bullets to get fouling into manageable with same cleaning procedure.
The only time I have to use a bronze brush is when I find that I have a bad barrel, that is loaded up with fouling inside of 50shts. If I have to do it more than a couple times, that barrel falls in a local dumpster.

 

[Gargoyle]

For rough factory barrels, I use Tubbs FinalFinish lapping bullets to get fouling into manageable with same cleaning procedure.
The only time I have to use a bronze brush is when I find that I have a bad barrel, that is loaded up with fouling inside of 50shts. If I have to do it more than a couple times, that barrel falls in a local dumpster.

Well, this is where I am on these two barrels of mine. Before striking gold through both of them, I cleaned them to bare metal and finished with patching dry with Breakfree CLP.

My next trip to the range is to see if the same thing happens again. Hopefully there is less copper fouling next go.

How do you apply the WS2?

 

[mikecr]

I keep a dry bore mop in a larger mop tube with BBs and a pinch of WS2.
With this, I can squeeze the tube and screw the cleaning rod onto/off the mop without making a mess.
I also have a dedicated rod guide and rod for this.

I just dry burnish the WS2 into the dry bore, and follow with a couple dry patches to remove any loose stuff.
Point the barrel into trash and hit it from the action with a good puff of canned air.
My bullets are also WS2 coated.

I store the gun with this, ready for next use (no further prefouling needed).
The 1st shot will be as good as any to follow.

I started using tungsten in the early 80s, mostly to reduce copper fouling. It does that but not completely. Truly the big advantages I've clung to is of universal fouling, that cleans out, so it is easy to reset/manage.
It also does not affect MV, nor accurate barrel life.

I've read predictions of corrosive potentials, but it hasn't happened for my barrels.
Maybe because I keep them clean. I don't put away a dirty gun of any kind.

 

[Gargoyle]

Well, a treatment of Lock Ease before 100rnds seemed to give some areas on the lands a reprieve from copper fouling. Helped immensely in the grooves. Not a spot in the grooves.

 

[Shooter13]

Have you ever tried Montana X ? If you do use it outside.

You NEVER forget the first time you open it!!!

 

[jepp2]

then 10-15 passes with a bronze brush soaked in alcohol. I think this accomplishes removing the copper solvent and then etching the remaining copper, making it more porous to dissolve away.

Each time I would see new blue on the patches where before using the same product it would not produce blue after alcohol treatments.

I haven't run your same experiment using isopropyl alcohol. I appreciate you sharing your findings.

I have tried almost every bore solvent and copper removing solvent over the past 30 years to find what I feel is most effective in removing both carbon and copper in my barrels. I have my own opinions about those, but will not hijack this post.

My conclusion on your findings are slightly different (please don't take this as a criticism, just sharing a different opinion). I would not expect isopropyl alcohol to have any effect on copper in the barrel. If I ran a bronze brush through a barrel even a few passes, my copper removing solvent would show blue on the patch from the residue of bronze left in the bore from the brush, since bronze is typically 88% copper.

 

[Gargoyle]

I haven't run your same experiment using isopropyl alcohol. I appreciate you sharing your findings.

I have tried almost every bore solvent and copper removing solvent over the past 30 years to find what I feel is most effective in removing both carbon and copper in my barrels. I have my own opinions about those, but will not hijack this post.

My conclusion on your findings are slightly different (please don't take this as a criticism, just sharing a different opinion). I would not expect isopropyl alcohol to have any effect on copper in the barrel. If I ran a bronze brush through a barrel even a few passes, my copper removing solvent would show blue on the patch from the residue of bronze left in the bore from the brush, since bronze is typically 88% copper.

I am only using the alcohol to rid the barrel of the previous used solvent in prep for a different solvent. Oh no hijack, please feel free to share your experience(s). That is why we are on these forums I think. Or PM me if that is better for you.

 

[PhilC]

Firearm cleaning procedures are like noses, everyone has one. I submit that the bottom line is if what you're doing produces the performance results on target that you desire then there should be no reason to change or anguish over it. The simplistic procedure I described works for me since I have no first shot flyers and the point of impact remains consistent from a recently cleaned barrel.

I agree, if your method meets your expectations everything else is noise.

 

[K22]

I agree, if your method meets your expectations everything else is noise.

I'm going to make a 2023 new year resolution not to engage in cleaning related posts. 

There seems to be new cleaning culture based on how the bore looks.

 

[Gargoyle]

I'm going to make a 2023 new year resolution not to engage in cleaning related posts. 

There seems to be new cleaning culture based on how the bore looks.

The Lock Ease treatment helped immensely! Two sessions of pre treating the barrel and after the second session there was only tiny spots of copper in one area of the lands!

I even managed to do a "brushless" cleaning. Wipeout foam with accelerator. Two - 1hr sits. Flushed with alcohol, dried the bore and reapplied the Lock Ease. Ready for next shoot!

 

[Rsadams]

I didn't see any results from the hoppies foam... I used and loved the gunslick brand for sooooo long and then they stopped making it.... How did the hoppies foam work , I have a can but am still using my last can of gunslick....

 

[Gargoyle]

I didn't see any results from the hoppies foam... I used and loved the gunslick brand for sooooo long and then they stopped making it.... How did the hoppies foam work , I have a can but am still using my last can of gunslick....

If you use alcohol to prepare a raw surface, Hoppes foam did remove some copper after Wipepout. However, The biggest "just noticeable difference" in copper build, or lack thereof, came after I used the Lock Ease prior to shooting, then Wipeout with accelerator. NIGHT and DAY difference for the better!

Bore after shooting through first application of Lock Ease:


Bore after shooting through second application of Lock Ease:


I'd imagine not seeing any copper after next session!

 

[Cecil S.]

For what its worth look into the Boretech cleaning system. I have had good results.

 

[Gargoyle]

For what its worth look into the Boretech cleaning system. I have had good results.

That is next!