Copper removal

[INTJ]

Most fellas I know take a range kit and clean after the match.
Do you place blue tape over the trigger opening prior to the bore guide?

I only clean after the match after the first day of a two day match. The barrel isn't warm at all. There isn't time between relays in an NBRSA LR BR match to clean. I suppose you might be able to run some solvent in between light and heavy gun--and I think some guys do, but you only have 10 minutes to clean and/or change rifles. Maybe in IBS there is more time?

@newbieshooter puts a piece of blue tape over his trigger opening because a couple years ago, a pice of carbon or something fell into the trigger and locked up his Bix and Andy trigger. That said, it's not a bad idea.

Again, the bottom line is that there are a bunch of ways to clean a rifle and have it shoot well. As long we are thoughtful, systematic, and pay attention to our results; most anything we come up with works.

 

[shoot4fun]

Yep' by the people that never used Sweets but heard it from some where and make statements on here without first hand knowledge. ..... jim

I used it for a long time, especially on factory barrels, as they tend to copper more than the good ones.
Follow directions and it works.

 

[shoot4fun]

Well I disagree with you but is that not the way many threads go that get a lot of participation. Your comment is a good example, let the OP decide that if he wishes. The only thing in the thread I saw as b's was the frosted comments, Maybe it would be a better thread with a positive comment from your learned mind.

To br clear, it is the thread you referred the OP to that I was talking about.

 

[johara1]

I used it for a long time, especially on factory barrels, as they tend to copper more than the good ones.
Follow directions and it works.

That may or may not work but if you put in and take it out as the directions say, but there is still copper in it... You put an other wet patch of Sweets back in you might as well left it in for 30 minutes? I let in there 3-4 hours on break in, I see no gain in shooting over copper you never get rid of the problem.... The company wants you to use a lot so they can sell more.... One patch of sweets and let it soak all night and in the morning al copper is gone and I can continue break in. Sometimes I get lucky and one shot and nothing, but not most of the time..... jim

 

[wkdickinson]

My experience has only been with premium quality match-grade barrels, so I have no knowledge about factory barrels. Back when I was seriously shooting High-Power, Boots Obermeyer told me how to clean his barrels (at the time I was only using his) - after a match push a couple patches through the barrel to get rid of the loose stuff, then wrap a patch on a worn out brush and saturate it with RemClean, make 10 passes both ways, then a few clean patches and your done. He also told me to use Sweet's after every 2 or 3 matches.

That was long before borescopes were available to "the masses" as they are now, so I had no idea how effective that regimen really was. But there also weren't many other alternatives to Sweet's and with the smell, you knew it had to work. My barrels shot well, so i was satisfied. However, since I've gotten a borescope I've stopped using both RemClean (10X now) and Sweet's. RemClean still works, but I find today's solvents very effective on carbon, without any abrasive. But IMO Sweet's is marginally effective at best on copper (however, I won't leave it in the barrel much longer than 15-20 minutes).

For quite a while I had been using Bore Tech "Carbon Remover" and "Copper Remover". Then about a year ago I start using Bore Tech "Eliminator" and am really please. It's easy, fast and effective, at least on my barrels (Kreiger, Bartlien and Criterion). But none of them are very prone toward copper fouling either, so it's more for the carbon. Periodically, I also use some JB (non-embedding) to really get the "hard" carbon out.

 

[jelenko]

You put an other wet patch of Sweets back in you might as well left it in for 30 minutes?

I used to think the same.
But a couple people have made the point that, perhaps, the chemical properties could change as Sweets drys out and/or reacts with fouling in the bore.

I don't either know or have done any experiments to test these idea. But, to take precaution would be to push a couple patches wet with Sweets through every 15 minutes. That would keep it wet and push out potential by products that would be corrosive.

I can say that in all the materials tables on ammonia corroding stainless at non highly elevated temperatures ammonia is shown as non corrosive to stainless steel.

 

[johara1]

I used to think the same.
But a couple people have made the point that, perhaps, the chemical properties could change as Sweets drys out and/or reacts with fouling in the bore.

I don't either know or have done any experiments to test these idea. But, to take precaution would be to push a couple patches wet with Sweets through every 15 minutes. That would keep it wet and push out potential by products that would be corrosive.

I can say that in all the materials tables on ammonia corroding stainless at non highly elevated temperatures ammonia is shown as non corrosive to stainless steel.

That is my point.... couple people made the point it may be harmful !!! Do they know ?? I have left in over night on a lot of barrels as does a friend of mine and it does not hurt a thing it is all BS....... jim

 

[dgeesaman]

For what it’s worth, the rifle I’m cleaning now is blued steel. Studies on 416 SS mean nothing.

 

[johara1]

Yes but I saw 50% amonia and hoppies used on heavy copper on military gun barrels... jim

 

[lotech]

Years ago, I took a tour of the Shilen Barrel plant. Mr. Shilen mentioned that it wasn't necessary to remove all copper fouling when cleaning as most barrels will still shoot fine with some copper in the bore. The Internet and its experts came along and promoted barrels that were 100% free of copper fouling. Whether such barrels will shoot any better or worse than slightly copper fouled bores depends on the barrel; no blanket policy here. Most times, a little copper fouling hurts nothing as far as accuracy and the barrel needn't be be "fouled" to get it shooting right.

There are always exceptions - often rough bores. I have a Kimber 257 Roberts that will shoot tiny groups- for about 20 - 25 rounds. After that, the 5/8" to 3/4" groups become 1 1/2" to 2" groups. It takes a lot to remove the copper, but it won't shoot well again unless almost every trace of copper is gone. Same for a 'pre-64 Model 70 in .30-06, but the bore is not rough in that one.

I've tried many copper removal products and most work well, but many are very slow. I've never looked at YouTube to learn how to clean a bore and probably won't, but I suppose it's possible there may be something worthwhile there on the subject.

Something at least as important, maybe more so than copper fouling removal is carbon fouling, but that should be a separate thread.

 

[dgeesaman]

There are always exceptions - often rough bores. I have a Kimber 257 Roberts that will shoot tiny groups- for about 20 - 25 rounds. After that, the 5/8" to 3/4" groups become 1 1/2" to 2" groups. It takes a lot to remove the copper, but it won't shoot well again unless almost every trace of copper is gone. Same for a 'pre-64 Model 70 in .30-06, but the bore is not rough in that one.

This is an older Sako custom that flirts between moa groups and shotgun patterns. Canjar single set trigger, gorgeous stock, L579 single shot action. Interesting rifle. I’ve been thinking it’s mostly bullet stability but I’m also working to get the barrel as clean as possible.

My last ditch effort will be to put a shim under the front action screw to free float the barrel. But then it’s new barrel time.

David

 

[johara1]

After one shot and clean till it quits making copper, I never need to to be concerned again till it quits shooting... jim

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

This is an older Sako custom that flirts between moa groups and shotgun patterns. Canjar single set trigger, gorgeous stock, L579 single shot action. Interesting rifle. I’ve been thinking it’s mostly bullet stability but I’m also working to get the barrel as clean as possible.

My last ditch effort will be to put a shim under the front action screw to free float the barrel. But then it’s new barrel time.

David

Older Sako's had 2 pressure points in the front of the stock that touched the barrel, just sand them away if present

 

[XL105]

I cleaned all my rifles a couple weeks ago using a combination of hoppes 9 and shooters choice. Gun room smelled for couple days!
So I been reading all these cleaning solvent threads and bore tech cleaners keep coming up. My cleaning supplies were running low, so I figured I would give a try. Bought both the carbon and copper cleaners. So I recleanded two of my rifles yesterday. Wow you would have thought I didn’t clean them at all. That stuff works really good And it doesn’t stink up my gun room. Amazing product!
Because guys keep talking about borescope I figured I would buy one. I bought teslong borescope. It’s alright. Works better on .223 then .308 using the long view (without using angled mirror). Just doesn’t show barrel grooves very well on .308. Using the angle mirror works fine on both.

 

[INTJ]

After one shot and clean till it quits making copper, I never need to to be concerned again till it quits shooting... jim

I am not criticizing the shoot one and clean break-in approach, but I quit doing it a couple decades ago and my barrels shoot just as well. They shoot better actually, but that is because I load and shoot better than I did many years ago.

I don't know how long past 100 rounds I can go between cleanings, but I do know that hard carbon really starts to build up after 100-150 rounds.

To be honest, I don't know that hard carbon is an issue, but cleaning it out with JB every 100 rounds isn't a big deal and I don't want to risk losing accuracy in a match.

On the other hand, a friend, gunsmith, and competitor who doesn't put much effort into cleaning at all shoots exceptionally well.

The more I do this, the better I shoot but the less I know for certain.........

 

[johara1]

I am not criticizing the shoot one and clean break-in approach, but I quit doing it a couple decades ago and my barrels shoot just as well. They shoot better actually, but that is because I load and shoot better than I did many years ago.

I don't know how long past 100 rounds I can go between cleanings, but I do know that hard carbon really starts to build up after 100-150 rounds.

To be honest, I don't know that hard carbon is an issue, but cleaning it out with JB every 100 rounds isn't a big deal and I don't want to risk losing accuracy in a match.

On the other hand, a friend, gunsmith, and competitor who doesn't put much effort into cleaning at all shoots exceptionally well.

The more I do this, the better I shoot but the less I know for certain.........

Just what do you consider as shooting well? I pull barrels that open up to a 1/4 min unless they are a hummer..... jim

 

[INTJ]

Just what do you consider as shooting well? I pull barrels that open up to a 1/4 min unless they are a hummer..... jim

If one of my 6mm LR BR rifles won't shoot 3/8" 5-shot groups at 200 yds, I keep tuning. My 300 WSMs need to be close to that as well. Realize LR BR rifles aren't at their best at close range. An SR BR rifle will usually beat an LR BR rifle until we are past 300 yds, and past 300 yds conditions start having a much greater effect.

In good conditions, I get under 1/4 MOA at 600 yds and under 1/3 MOA at 1000. One day in outstanding conditions I managed three consecutive 3-shot groups under 2" at 1000 yds. Alas, it was just the tuning day before the match.

Shooting well is very dependent upon the type of rifle as well. I was happy when my 450 NE double rifle would shoot 4-shot groups under 2" at 50 yds. I am happy when a 348 or 45-70 with iron sights shoots 2" 3-shot groups at 100 yds. I am happy when a lighter weight bolt action will shoot under 3/4" 3-shot groups at 100 with premium hunting bullets. I expect my long range hunting rifles to shoot under 1/2" at 100 yds.

It's only the BR rifles that I really obsess over.......

 

[johara1]

Long range BR rifles will shoot under a .1 at 100, In fact years ago when I was opening the free bore diameter to .2438 I opened it up on two barrels and the shot three groups each in the zero's.. The same guns when to a 1000 yd. match and the one in light gun shot four 5 shot groups and agged. 2.833" and never dropped a point.... jim