Copper bullets, I am over it.

[searcher]

Well, I do not eat the area shot\damaged, I think the amount of lead is minimal at best. I have been eating lead shot game meat 35 years now, humm maybe that explains some things Realistically the bonded bullets I mostly shoot have very high weight retention so there is not a concern. A Berger bullet? Well that is a different animal all together...

Yeah - lead shot doesn't fragment like high-velocity rifle ammo. I'm sure you have seen the gel-block pics and videos of how far those fragments travel radially. To know one has gotten rid of all the lead, it could mean removing a lot of meat - that may or may not have lead in it. I'm not picking on lead here - just wondering how big a deal it is to most buyers who choose one bullet type over the other. I'm sure I've ingested my share of meat tainted where I didn't get it all out. Just part of the deal. I'd guess I'm far more exposed to lead when casting bullets and shooting them in volume.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

His books are excellent and bullet critiques are based on thousands of autopsy's. A book cost less than a box of cartridges!

I enjoyed his long range shooting book.

 

[MrK.]

Didn't Nosler have a solid base ( Copper) bullet some years back, which looked a lot like the TA, however I believe they were in only small caliber (224) and used for varmint shooting. They really came apart.

I think the solid base morphed into the Ballistic Tip. Seems like the Solid Base was dropped about the time the Ballistic Tips appeared. I used to shoot 150gn Solid Bases in my 30-06. I just shot up my last handful of them in the last year or so plinking with my 300BLK.

Edit to add: I used to have a sectioned Solid Base and a sectioned Ballistic Tip. They looked remarkably similar sans the plastic tip.

 

[wildcatter]

I wonder what most people feel about having lead fragments scattered throughout the meat of game shot. That doesn't seem to be a topic brought up too much when folks talk about the differences between lead and copper bullets. I'm not knowledgeable about how much lead it takes to make things bad for a person.

Most people know how to process what they kill. I never had to deal with that. Same with fowl, easy to remove any, it's pretty obvious where it is at.

I'm to old to start over. I can honestly say over the decades I have always had no trouble with quality Jacketed lead bullets. But in my 257 Ackley a 100 grn BT works, better yet is a 100 grn Partition or 110 accubond. I know what the 85 gr Balistic tips are for, not big game over 2900 fps. This is just for example. but copper lies, 3000 fps may be golden on one shot, the next bullet out of the box might perform like a monolithic.

I have plenty of buddies who use or have tried Copper, they have proven to me they cannot be relied on to perform the same on similar distance and velocity.

 

[SixFive]

Most people know how to process what they kill. I never had to deal with that. Same with fowl, easy to remove any, it's pretty obvious where it is at.

I'm to old to start over. I can honestly say over the decades I have always had no trouble with quality Jacketed lead bullets. But in my 257 Ackley a 100 grn BT works, better yet is a 100 grn Partition or 110 accubond. I know what the 85 gr Balistic tips are for, not big game over 2900 fps. This is just for example. but copper lies, 3000 fps may be golden on one shot, the next bullet out of the box might perform like a monolithic.

I have plenty of buddies who use or have tried Copper, they have proven to me they cannot be relied on to perform the same on similar distance and velocity.

Yes sir, that is my experience with them also. Once again MY experience, shoot what you like but copper ain't it for me anymore. That will leave more copper on the store shelves for you guys who like them

 

[Bc'z]

I wonder what most people feel about having lead fragments scattered throughout the meat of game shot. That doesn't seem to be a topic brought up too much when folks talk about the differences between lead and copper bullets. I'm not knowledgeable about how much lead it takes to make things bad for a person.

Winner Winner chicken dinner!!!
Eggs Ackley why I gave them a go

 

[TTE]

Winner Winner chicken dinner!!!
Eggs Ackley why I gave them a go

munchin' lead or copper probably isn't very healthy

 

[Bc'z]

munchin' lead or copper probably isn't very healthy

And bottled water has carcinogen

 

[Homerange]

Yes sir, that is my experience with them also. Once again MY experience, shoot what you like but copper ain't it for me anymore. That will leave more copper on the store shelves for you guys who like them

We need remember the traditional lead core hunting projectile has undergone at least a century of development and field work where some makers have come and gone but the the popular names remain and not by coincidence.....they know their shit !

Copper projectiles have not had such development and some might say they are still in their infancy.
In another couple of decades things will surely be different ..... one would expect.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Ditto. I keep the leftover Barnes bullets to throw at stray cats, about all they're good for...

 

[searcher]

We need remember the traditional lead core hunting projectile has undergone at least a century of development and field work where some makers have come and gone but the the popular names remain and not by coincidence.....they know their shit !

Copper projectiles have not had such development and some might say they are still in their infancy.
In another couple of decades things will surely be different ..... one would expect.

True words right there... And it really is interesting how differently various brands of copper bullets perform. Unless they have been changed a lot, I recall the GMX as being probably the best penetrator of the "expanding" copper bullets (aside from a monolithic solid as used for dangerous game) though that is because they expand more slowly. The Barnes open more quickly, to the point petals will shear off when an animal is shot at close range at high velocity. Then, you have the solids, designed to not expand much and where remaining intact and not mushrooming much for increased penetration is desired. I'm sure, over time, we will see more offerings aimed at particular applications. I'm kind of surprised we haven't, as of yet, seen a heavier core non-lead, though that might be a lot to do with price. That would provide all the benefits of copper and lead, it would seem.

 

[searcher]

Is that Terminal Accent still being marketed as a reloading bullet? I always assumed it was just in Federal’s loaded ammo.

That is a bullet I'd like to try if available for handloading.

 

[searcher]

Most people know how to process what they kill. I never had to deal with that. Same with fowl, easy to remove any, it's pretty obvious where it is at.

I'm to old to start over. I can honestly say over the decades I have always had no trouble with quality Jacketed lead bullets. But in my 257 Ackley a 100 grn BT works, better yet is a 100 grn Partition or 110 accubond. I know what the 85 gr Balistic tips are for, not big game over 2900 fps. This is just for example. but copper lies, 3000 fps may be golden on one shot, the next bullet out of the box might perform like a monolithic.

I have plenty of buddies who use or have tried Copper, they have proven to me they cannot be relied on to perform the same on similar distance and velocity.

Some brands are well known to act almost as a monolithic (with intent). The only times they will really "mushroom" is when hitting bone. I think the biggest limitation I'd put on most lead-free bullets is how they perform at long range. Being long-for-weight, they destabilize more quickly than lead, especially when comparing the bullets using the same-twist barrel. Getting faster twist barrels to better stabilize them is often necessary, though we do the same thing to shoot heavier leaded bullets. If I didn't live in an area requiring lead-free, I'd definitely be using leaded bullets for my longer-range rigs. Within reasonable distance most hunters shoot at, I think arguing copper VS lead with a bullet like the Barnes TTSX is a mute point. Too broad of a brush stroke. If I were a hunter taking 700-800 yard shots (I don't), I'd say lead is the best overall choice. Within 300 for medium/large cartridges, I'd personally prefer a Barnes TTSX. Copper bullets do have more limitations than leaded bullets, I think - but that doesn't always make them the poor choice. I used to use 150 grain leaded in my 7 MM Rem Mag for deer. After having taken almost as many deer with the Barnes and a bunch of pigs, I much prefer the better performance with the Barnes. Of course, we all have our own experiences.

 

[Orr89rocz]

has any company experimented with alternative metal cores? We have alternative non toxic shotshell shot, could we do something there?

 

[SixFive]

That is a bullet I'd like to try if available for handloading.

Be careful, they are addictive and expensive! They are the Ferrari of bullets. Once you use them you will want them for everything you hunt with, at least that was how it was for me, there is no one perfect bullet but the Federal Terminal Ascent is in my opinion as close as it gets. Its got the Bonded Lead front for the lead guys, the back half solid copper for "those" guys and a fantastic BC for the long range shooters. They work well up close at extreme velocity (think 6.5-300WBY Mag at 50 yard speeds) and they open well at slower long range velocity even down to 1800fps. They mushroom in the front quickly and the copper base gets DEEP penetration. I have NEVER heard anyone who has used them have a single complaint, that is dang rare with bullets! There is nothing I wouldn't hunt with them, from whitetail deer to pissed off grizzly bears (using correct calibers of coarse).

It isn't magic though, you still have to put the bullet where it is supposed to go.

Any Hunt. Any Range. Federal’s Terminal Ascent - Outdoor News

Terminal Ascent blends the features of top match-style bullet designs with the industry’s best bonding technology and components to deliver any-range accuracy and reliable expansion even at low velocities. This outstanding bullet design provides high weight retention, deep penetration and lethal...

www.outdoornews.com

 

[Homerange]

True words right there... And it really is interesting how differently various brands of copper bullets perform.

The same can be said for lead core projectiles.

Matching the projectile to the intended game and to the shooting platform is of highest importance.

Factory ammo is a mixture of proving dependable performance in the caliber it's designed for.
Dependable performance is a 2 edged sword......sufficient penetration and adequate mushrooming and weight loss to provide an adequate path of damage to account for imprecise hits....hurried shots or the variables of extended range.

We as hunter reloaders can manage this best with intimate knowledge of the game we seek where it's not unusual to have different hunting loads for the same rifle.

A few years back I worked up a load for a new to me cheap 7mm08 with 120gr Hornady, the cheapest 7mm08 pill available from my reloading shop.
With little work I had these 120's cloverleafing @ 100yds and had achieved my requirement for a sporter weight rifle.
Just a few days later I got a call from a friend that had a group of wild Red deer hinds in an open paddock.
With no chance to stalk them I had to take shots from 180-250yds and with 2 in the bag there was no need to get greedy.
Despite being just 120gr spire point flat base, the cheap Hornady's terminal performance was outstanding.

The new fangled world beating projectile designs need time to prove themselves.

 

[cmysix]

California required lead-free for any hunting. I don't know of anyone here that uses them because they're better than classic hunting bullets, just that it's a requirement. I get around it by not hunting.

You didn't get around it, you fell right in their trap, essentially they took your gun and you stood right there and let them do it, that's what they wanted you to do.

 

[justinp61]

You didn't get around it, you fell right in their trap, essentially they took your gun and you stood right there and let them do it, that's what they wanted you to do.

Yes, we still vote for elected officials.

 

[searcher]

The same can be said for lead core projectiles.

Matching the projectile to the intended game and to the shooting platform is of highest importance.

Factory ammo is a mixture of proving dependable performance in the caliber it's designed for.
Dependable performance is a 2 edged sword......sufficient penetration and adequate mushrooming and weight loss to provide an adequate path of damage to account for imprecise hits....hurried shots or the variables of extended range.

We as hunter reloaders can manage this best with intimate knowledge of the game we seek where it's not unusual to have different hunting loads for the same rifle.

A few years back I worked up a load for a new to me cheap 7mm08 with 120gr Hornady, the cheapest 7mm08 pill available from my reloading shop.
With little work I had these 120's cloverleafing @ 100yds and had achieved my requirement for a sporter weight rifle.
Just a few days later I got a call from a friend that had a group of wild Red deer hinds in an open paddock.
With no chance to stalk them I had to take shots from 180-250yds and with 2 in the bag there was no need to get greedy.
Despite being just 120gr spire point flat base, the cheap Hornady's terminal performance was outstanding.

The new fangled world beating projectile designs need time to prove themselves.

I should have been more precise in my statement. ALL brands/types of bullets vary in accuracy. I meant to say they vary a lot in respect to terminal performance - some are designed to open up quite quickly - others not so much. Like lead bullets, there are options for different applications. Some folks make generalized statements about "Lead" or "copper" and try to paint too broad of a brush stroke on either one. Those 120 Hornady's are pretty accurate in my 7mm Rem. Mag. I have used them for practice a lot in the past.

 

[MQ1]

has any company experimented with alternative metal cores? We have alternative non toxic shotshell shot, could we do something there?

DRT has a compressed tungsten core, but I have not shot them on game yet.