Copper bullets, I am over it.

[choprzrul]

I've switched to Hammers and I'm not going back. I've shot 6 deer now with various calibers and bullet weights/types, and they have all dropped within 30 yards of where I hit them with one being a bang/flop.

25-06 with 90gr AH running 3611 fps
6.5CM with 85gr HH running 3402 fps (20" barrel)
270 WSM with 122gr HHT running 3445 fps

The 122gr HHT was really more devastating than I like on this year's buck....probably better suited to elk sized game. I'm going to do some load development this summer with the 116gr AH and (hopefully) see how it does next fall on deer.

In the oddly enough department, 4 of the above deer ran in a circle before piling up. I really don't recall seeing that happen on any of the deer I have taken between 1978 to 2021 with lead core bullets. My buck this year ran in 1 1/2 circles and I found him 25 yards from where I shot him:

 

[searcher]

I think that DRT‘s methods of using compressed tungsten may very well be different than how other bullet manufacturers use compressed sintered copper/tin alloys. I’ve not always been impressed with the lead free Nosler BT nor the Varmint Grenades, and from personal experience have seen them not live up to their marketing. That is why I bought enough to try out…and see if there is a difference. They do seem to measure and weigh like lead, and that does promise a little better ballistics vs copper or tin.

I do wish one of these companies would make a lead free, compressed core .257 bullet. I think a 60 grain Varmint Grenade or Lehigh Controlled Chaos would be impressive out of a 25-06 for a couple hundred yards.

MQ1

I've shot many thousands of the lead-free bullets you mention - and I shoot probably equal amounts of leaded varmint Ballistic Tips, V-Maxes, Blitz Kings, etc., so I can say I've actually had quite a comparison over many, many bullets fired. My experiences have been overall very good with the lead-free, though there are few "other" lead-free brands that my rifles just wouldn't shoot worth a darn. It is like that with lead bullets too, though - so I can't say they are bad bullets. A few years ago, when Lehigh did a run of the .17 cal. Controlled Chaos bullets, I snapped up a bunch of them - as was the only lead-free .17 cal. at that time (other than possible custom bullets). They shoot fairly good out of my .17 Hornet, but nowhere as good as the NTX which is now available to loaders. One of the plusses with the lead-free bullets is they can really handle velocities that often make leaded bullets blow up, like going well over 4k. I too would like a really nice lead-free for my .257 Roberts. I think that 60 grain weight might be just the ticket.

 

[TTE]

I disagree with the posts that say copper bullets have not been developed.

In the beginning Barnes had 1 type of bullet only.
Other companies had none.
Barnes now offers more than one type of bullet.
There are other companies offering copper bullets as well.
And those companies may or may not offer more than one type of copper bullet

Those 'other companies' did not just "steal" Barnes design.

 

[MQ1]

A few years ago, when Lehigh did a run of the .17 cal. Controlled Chaos bullets, I snapped up a bunch of them - as was the only lead-free .17 cal. at that time (other than possible custom bullets). They shoot fairly good out of my .17 Hornet, but nowhere as good as the NTX which is now available to loaders. One of the plusses with the lead-free bullets is they can really handle velocities that often make leaded bullets blow up, like going well over 4k. I too would like a really nice lead-free for my .257 Roberts. I think that 60 grain weight might be just the ticket.

I never thought that anyone was going to make a lead free .17 so I sold off my LH CZ527 .17 Remington. Probably one of the few sales I really regret.

Your post gives me more hope for the lead free varmint bullets. I have a lifetime of shooting lead back in Ohio, but have not shot very many no lead varmint bullets in CA mostly due to time and opportunity. Keep an eye open at Lehigh…they told me they were really considering a 60gr Controlled Chaos for us .257 nuts.

MQ1

 

[Bc'z]

I disagree with the posts that say copper bullets have not been developed.

In the beginning Barnes had 1 type of bullet only.
Other companies had none.
Barnes now offers more than one type of bullet.
There are other companies offering copper bullets as well.
And those companies may or may not offer more than one type of copper bullet

Those 'other companies' did not just "steal" Barnes design.

I'm gonna try the 7mm 145 LRX next, Barnes claims a lower velocity 1600fps for expansion performance threshold.

 

[TTE]

I'm gonna try the 7mm 145 LRX next, Barnes claims a lower velocity 1600fps for expansion performance threshold.

Cool !

As I stated previously, I don't care what bullets anyone uses. Use what you like.

Also as stated previously, I am not taking copper type bullets on my safari
in June

 

[Bc'z]

Cool !

As I stated previously, I don't care what bullets anyone uses. Use what you like.

Also as stated previously, I am not taking copper type bullets on my safari
in June

It was the part you said that they've been developed that struck me, hence the mention of the LRX....
The 7mm 139gr LRX has a 1400fps velocity threshold but they weren't on sale,and I'm already questioning the horsepower to weight ratio giving me the utmost confidence to take them on safari.

 

[TTE]

It was the part you said that they've been developed that struck me, hence the mention of the LRX....
The 7mm 139gr LRX has a 1400fps velocity threshold but they weren't on sale,and I'm already questioning the horsepower to weight ratio giving me the utmost confidence to take them on safari.

Cool

 

[lachoneus]

I have only taken 15 plains animals in Africa, but each fell to Barnes TTSX or LRX bullets. All but three were one-shot kills. One wildebeest took two .308 slugs, one a frontal shot and the second in the chest after the bull was already down. One kudu took a 7mm slug and started to move away and I shot again at the PH's request, but the animal fell over just as the second shot broke. Another kudu moved when I shot and the .375 bullet landed too far back, and needed a follow-up shot. Everything else was a one-bullet proposition and none went more than 20-30 yards. Several dropped right where they stood. I have recovered only four of the slugs I shot and each of them mushroomed, some in picture-pretty fashion. I have been with three outfitters now and each has asked me to bring Barnes bullets. In the States, I have shot several deer with 7mm Hornady Interlocks and had perfectly acceptable results, but the African outfitters roundly panned them.

 

[TTE]

but the African outfitters roundly panned them.

20+ years in Tanzania ........... I'm in that club

 

[Drob]

I've also tried copper several years because of claimed better penetration, etc. and come to the same conclusion you've come to. I think unless you shoot through the front shoulders you won't get the expansion and wound channel of any lead core bullet. IMHO, and real worlds experience on game.

 

[dixiecricket]

Didnt realize there was this much discontent with Barnes and copper monos in general.

I've had great luck shooting the 70GMX and then CX model in .223 at 2900fps at about 100 pigs. Another 150-200 pigs killed with the 95gr TTSX at 2850fps in 6.8SPC, and another 30-40 animals with the 180CX at 2950fps in 300WM and about a dozen deer mixed in with all that. And 20-30 pigs with the 53gr ECX at 3100 in .223. Forgot, another dozen pigs and deer with the 130TTSX in .308 at 2830fps.

Overall I love the deep straight penetration and bone breaking abilities of coppers and its my prefered bullet.

I have experienced pencil exits with the 70gr CX, but they were due to petals breaking off internally and the base continued. I purchased them as blems and im either driving them too fast or they didnt pass QC.

In general i get MOA accuracy from all the TTSX bullets ive tried and 1-2MOA or better with the GMX and CX bullets. I purposfully take double shoulder shots on deer and pigs and about half all flop over.

I have small children and dont want them eating lead as it can affect their developmemt, so all eating animals are shot with coppers. After seeing X-ray images of lead dispersion in flesh its a no-go for me.

I shoot a ton of pigs with 16" .308 and 180gr SST loaded to 2330fps for a mild load. Not many of those bullets exit and the vast majority of them severely fragment and the cup-core seperates. They do a lot of damage but i cannot take the quartering shots i could pull off with a copper mono and deeper penetration.

The monos need to be driven fast and have a reliable expansion floor of 2000fps (at least ones i deal with).

The 180 CX at 2950 is a force to recon with. I can rely on 24"-30" of penetration on pigs as ive shot several thru the butt and recovered the mushroomed slug in the neck area. Shot one faceing me about 250yds away with his head turned sideways. Bullet entered the cheek, exited back of skull, entered again at hip and exited out ass cheek. Never had another double-hit like that.

I pig hunt weekly for the past 5 years so i get to see a lot of terminal effects from different bullets. Both types work and you need to know how to use their strong suits to your advantage. 99.9% of what i do is 20-300yds max and off a tripod during stalks for context.

 

[Orr89rocz]

I hope to do some deer hunting this fall with coppers. Barnes ttsx. Im going somewhat unconventional, much lighter for caliber than expected at much higher velocity than most factory loads.

I will be using my 6.8 Western with the 95 gr ttsx and its moving near 3650. Shots will be under 150 yards most likely.
Also my 257 Roberts with 80 gr ttsx going 3500-3530.

My brother has used his 338 win mag with a 160 ttsx at 3200 but hit the neck somehow on a deer moving thru some brush. Not alot of meat there but severed artery and bled out after a good run. Exit wasnt what id expect but i guess not bad considering fairly thin portion of deer.

My only other copper experience was 300 gr ttsx in 458 win mag loaded down to 4570 levels. Very impressed.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I have a very hard time believing Barnes claims that their bullets expand well enough down to 1400-1600 fps. Marketing gimmick to sell bullets more like it IMHO. I've personally seen/shot deer and elk with the xlc/tsx that just penciled theough like a FMJ after ripping all petals off, and the animals running off like nothing happened. And these were all inside 300 yards with 7 mags and 300 mags. It would be easy enough to see for yourself though. Take a starting load and then see where the impact velocity is 1500fps or so, and set up your testing media at that distance. I swore them off after 2 seasons, so I won't be the test dummy here. Still curious to see if what they claim is true though. Copper is just so much tougher than lead. I believe copper bullets have their place, like taking smaller calibers and using them on bigger game than what their typically used for, or ultra high velocities at close range. That's about it. There is still no perfect bullet under every circumstance. Always a give and take somewhere.

 

[dixiecricket]

Shot some .308 130gr TTSX at 3030fps impact velocity into boar carcases, lengthwise from the rear hip into front shoulder so i could recover them. Both of them penetrated 20-22" across ribs and vertabrae and lodged under shoulder hide. I have a coffee cup full of similar examples ill try to get a photo of next week.

 

[Lefty2506]

Personally, I like monolithic bullets, but I do understand their limitations. Most companies, including Barnes, Lehigh, Hammer, and Bear Creek Ballistics use a relatively hard copper alloy for their rifle bullets. Regardless of what Barnes advertises, the bullets need to be running +2,000 fps on impact to ensure good penetration. If they hit bone and are running slower, you're probably going to be fine. If you slip one between the ribs, all bets are off. Expanding in 10% or 20% ballistics gel is not the same thing as expanding on an animal.

My understanding is that there are a couple of manufacturers that are using a softer copper alloy for their rifle bullets. I believe Maker and Cavity Back are in this category. I've had good expansion on Cavity Back's 105Gr MKZ (.264) bullets on soft tissue out to 300 yds from my Grendel, but that should still be running 2200 fps at that distance. With a little luck, I'll get to fur test their tipped 125gr MKZ (.308) this weekend. I have it loaded in some 300 BO and I'll be running it in a 10.5" upper. They should be running closer to that 2,000 fps mark on impact. I think I'm only getting 2100 out of them at the muzzle, but I'd have to look in my records to confirm.

 

[FDCaptain]

Nothing beats a lead core bullet!