Concentricity Guage

[bozo699]

I'm unaware of any concentricity gage marketed to handloaders, but there are plenty of TIR gages.

Stiles,
I am not sure what you mean? do you mean Concentricity gage or gauge? or do you mean total induced runout is the proper term that a machinist would use rather than concentric? The world is full of miss terminology, try calling sinclair Sinclair, Midway and ask for a TIR gauge they would have no idea what you were talking about but they could find a tool to measure the tir,....it's commonly called a Concentricity gauge
Wayne.

 

[vern]

Stiles here is a like to only one site but there are 3 listed there.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=concentricity/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=concentricity

And yes they are listed as concentricity gage and gauge both. FWIW

 

[bozo699]

Stiles here is a like to only one site but there are 3 listed there.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=concentricity/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=concentricity

And yes they are listed as concentricity gage and gauge both. FWIW

True, but?......
gage1    [geyj] Show IPA noun, verb, gaged, gag·ing.
noun
1.
something, as a glove, thrown down by a medieval knight in token of challenge to combat.
2.
Archaic . a challenge.
3.
Archaic . a pledge or pawn; security.


gauge   [geyj] Show IPA verb, gauged, gaug·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to determine the exact dimensions, capacity, quantity, or force of; measure.
2.
to appraise, estimate, or judge.
3.
to make conformable to a standard.
4.
to mark or measure off; delineate.
5.
to prepare or mix (plaster) with a definite proportion of plaster of Paris and mortar.

As I said it's all in terminology and of course as in Sinclairs case, a slip of a keybord key
Wayne.

 

[mikecr]

Seems 'Gauge' is the term we should be using.
Stiles, the link Vern provided takes you to see two different types of measure regardless of merchandising.
The Sinclair is a runout gauge.
The Hornady is a concentricity gauge.

There are arguments about the merits of both specifically, but only low runout implies BOTH straight ammo AND concentric ammo.
So IMO, given that well made ammo is both, a runout gauge is most useful.
I agree with earlier sentiment about bending poorly made ammo to make it concentric. Bad idea

 

[bozo699]

Seems 'Gauge' is the term we should be using.
Stiles, the link Vern provided takes you to see two different types of measure regardless of merchandising.
The Sinclair is a runout gauge.
The Hornady is a concentricity gauge.

There are arguments about the merits of both specifically, but only low runout implies BOTH straight ammo AND concentric ammo.
So IMO, given that well made ammo is both, a runout gauge is most useful.
I agree with earlier sentiment about bending poorly made ammo to make it concentric. Bad idea

 

[MrMajestic]

Total Indicator Reading or TIR is not eccentricity or concentricity.

 

[cyclepath37]

I use a Sinclair, the more recent version with rollers balls. Consistent pressure when rolling the case is necessary for accurate measurement. As others have commented, the tool is for measuring, I would not correct a loaded round, I would check my reloading technique and equipment, the sizing die is critical.

Martin

Does Sinclair have an updated design or do you mean the unit with the pressed in hard chromed balls? I have noticed mine have the chrome worn off at the contact areas where the case spins.

Thanks

Matt

 

[jonbearman]

Wayne ,I laughed so hard with your printed dictionary,I almost spit out what I was drinking.LOL

 

[bozo699]

Wayne ,I laughed so hard with your printed dictionary,I almost spit out what I was drinking.LOL

Jon,
Sorry about that but sometimes it is necessary, I also have the meanings of eccentricity, concentricity, and TIR, which I might have to post as well, I'll warn you first, I don't want you to loose any of that expensive Latte ;D
Wayne.

 

[JohnW...ski]

I think a lot of us here might be a little eccentric.

John

Wayne ,I laughed so hard with your printed dictionary,I almost spit out what I was drinking.LOL

Jon,
Sorry about that but sometimes it is necessary, I also have the meanings of eccentricity, concentricity, and TIR, which I might have to post as well, I'll warn you first, I don't want you to loose any of that expensive Latte ;D
Wayne.

 

[bozo699]

I think a lot of us here might be a little eccentric.

John

Wayne ,I laughed so hard with your printed dictionary,I almost spit out what I was drinking.LOL

Jon,
Sorry about that but sometimes it is necessary, I also have the meanings of eccentricity, concentricity, and TIR, which I might have to post as well, I'll warn you first, I don't want you to loose any of that expensive Latte ;D
Wayne.

Oh how true my friend
Wayne.

 

[Petros284]

Just got my new 21st Century Concentricity Gauge. I am very impressed by this tool. It is solid tool with very smooth operation, and very is accurate. In addition the option to check loaded rounds for runout, and both the inside and outside of the case neck are a plus. I know there are other tools out there that can do the same function, but this tool stands out! I would recommend this to anyone in the market for a great tool at a fair price!

 

[wildchild]

Slightly of topic maybe but some of them measuring devices have a straightener option, would trying to push that bullet straight change neck tension?

 

[stiles]

The Sinclair is a runout gauge.
The Hornady is a concentricity gauge.

Neither are concentricity gauges (if I must type another letter to keep the spelling/grammar nazi appeased), it takes two diametrically opposed indicators to measure concentricity. If it only has one indicator it is a TIR gauge. The location of your datums doesn't change this fact. Concentricity is only concerned with the median points of the central axis and ignores form errors, that is why it takes two indicators (well in most cases). Oh and concentricity is one of the most useless measurements for the vast majority of parts, TIR is a functionally better measurement.

Gage and gauge are used interchangeably in American English, here is an example. Thanks spelling/grammar nazi!

 

[stiles]

Stiles,
I am not sure what you mean? do you mean Concentricity gage or gauge? or do you mean total induced runout is the proper term that a machinist would use rather than concentric? The world is full of miss terminology, try calling sinclair Sinclair, Midway and ask for a TIR gauge they would have no idea what you were talking about but they could find a tool to measure the tir,....it's commonly called a Concentricity gauge
Wayne.

Yes I mean gage and gauge can be used interchangeably, both are correct, but guage is not correct (sorry OP I didn't start the semantic argument, I knew what you were talking about). I also mean that the measurements, TIR and concentricity are totally different measurements. Welcome to GD&T 101. For example concentricity ignores the most common type of cylindricity error, an oval shape, but TIR will indicate this type of form error.

I've have never heard total indicated runout or reading called "induced" not sure where you got that, maybe incuction has something to do with it hell i don't know. Maybe you can explain it to me? And you were talking about a world full of incorrect terminology?

I couldn't care less what some handloading companies call their wears, but I do care about what GD&T standards mean. After all if I don't know GD&T I can get caned for making scrap parts. When was the last time you had an $80k+ part on your table? Me? Yesterday. IJS.

Let me guess, your not a machinist.

 

[kennyg]

Just got my new 21st Century Concentricity Gauge. I am very impressed by this tool. It is solid tool with very smooth operation, and very is accurate. In addition the option to check loaded rounds for runout, and both the inside and outside of the case neck are a plus. I know there are other tools out there that can do the same function, but this tool stands out! I would recommend this to anyone in the market for a great tool at a fair price!

Man I have been eying these since they came out, but haven't been able to scrounge up the money yet......

 

[mikecr]

Thanks for some clarification Stiles. The Hornady appears(to me) as taken from centerline only, which is why I see it as indicating eccentricity(rather than all form errors as mentioned).
All I know for sure though is that STRAIGHT means low TIR.
CENTERED/concentric, is a different matter(any ole square can be centered).

 

[bozo699]

Stiles,
I am not sure what you mean? do you mean Concentricity gage or gauge? or do you mean total induced runout is the proper term that a machinist would use rather than concentric? The world is full of miss terminology, try calling sinclair Sinclair, Midway and ask for a TIR gauge they would have no idea what you were talking about but they could find a tool to measure the tir,....it's commonly called a Concentricity gauge
Wayne.

Yes I mean gage and gauge can be used interchangeably, both are correct, but guage is not correct (sorry OP I didn't start the semantic argument, I knew what you were talking about). I also mean that the measurements, TIR and concentricity are totally different measurements. Welcome to GD&T 101. For example concentricity ignores the most common type of cylindricity error, an oval shape, but TIR will indicate this type of form error.

I've have never heard total indicated runout or reading called "induced" not sure where you got that, maybe incuction has something to do with it hell i don't know. Maybe you can explain it to me? And you were talking about a world full of incorrect terminology?

I couldn't care less what some handloading companies call their wears, but I do care about what GD&T standards mean. After all if I don't know GD&T I can get caned for making scrap parts. When was the last time you had an $80k+ part on your table? Me? Yesterday. IJS.

Let me guess, your not a machinist.

Stiles,
You totally took what I said out of context, What I said I said in good humor meaning the whole world calls them concentricity Gauges, I even further backed that up by taking the word you used gage and added the correct form Gauge, half the world calls it a gage and the other half calls it a gauge, 9/10ths of the world calls it a concentricity gauge when you and I really know it isn't measuring concentricity, I further made it a point to add a smiley face and not !!!?? : ??? Then Vern made a post NOT YOU!! and I corrected the use of the word Gage and Gauge and finished with a wink Now you took it all out of context of what I meant and was trying to convey and to further proof your point you made it a point to point out you worked with a $80000 part on your Lathe today and implied I was a welfare rat or something when in fact you know nothing about me or you would know I work with million dollar pieces of equipment every day and we have a state of the art Machine shop at our facility and four smaller machine shops through out the plant so put that in your pipe and smoke it!!
Wayne.

 

[stiles]

Thanks for some clarification Stiles. The Hornady appears(to me) as taken from centerline only, which is why I see it as indicating eccentricity(rather than all form errors as mentioned).
All I know for sure though is that STRAIGHT means low TIR.
CENTERED/concentric, is a different matter(any ole square can be centered).

Your getting closer! It does measuring from the diameter, but it chooses the datums differently to mitigate some of the form errors on the brass. It tries to do so by taking two datums on the bullet (a swagged component which is far more accurate) and only one datum on the cartridge brass. The H&H gauge does the same, so did the 60's LE Wilson case spinner. They are all still a TIR measurement but they selected their datums differently to mitigate some of the brass form errors.

Most of the form and concentricity errors on our brass comes from off the shelf sizing dies that are heat treated after being reamed. This process just causes way too much variation of the die.

Actually you can have perfect concentricity in a part that is oval shape but it will show this form error in a TIR inspection. TIR for the most part equals concentricity plus form error (in most cases). Here let me find that youtube GD&T video on concentricity. It is just hard to understand the differences without seeing it.

 

[necchi]

OK stiles, is this runout or lack of concentricity?

What if the bullet tip where shifted to the right to reach the C/L and the neck was still at it's indicated angle?

Application of machine parts and that language to bullet concentricity is really a mute point, while they may indeed be subject to the same terminology as applied in the lab they are different applications.

Take the term rubber as an example, is it a condom or a tire or perhaps a seal for the plumber,,
,,it's all semantics man.

This forum refers to handloading, and in this industry they are call "Concentricity Gauges"