Concentricity Guage

[stiles]

both, concentricity will always show up as runout. From what i can see there is no form error in that drawing so it is all concentricity but TIR will indicate it.

 

[stiles]

What if the bullet tip where shifted to the right to reach the C/L and the neck was still at it's indicated angle?

You would have two different concentricity errors, the one at the neck and the one at the bullet. Well that is if I am reading your inquire correctly.

Application of machine parts and that language to bullet concentricity is really a mute point, while they may indeed be subject to the same terminology as applied in the lab they are different applications.

Actually no it isn't because form errors matter too. How can you define form errors if you don't understand the difference between TIR and concetricity.

Take the term rubber as an example, is it a condom or a tire or perhaps a seal for the plumber,,
,,it's all semantics man.

Nope sorry to do this to you but it's just a common material. That is pretty obvious isn't it? This has nothing to do with semantics.

This forum refers to handloading, and in this industry they are call "Concentricity Gauges"

And the hobby is wrong, they are TIR gauges. Hay was the World flat before Columbus?

 

[dig]

21st looks like a great machine was not availible when I made my purchase and I have never tried to use the straitner anyway, Why? Again can't say enough good about H&H and his service.

 

[stiles]

Stiles,
I am not sure what you mean? do you mean Concentricity gage or gauge? or do you mean total induced runout is the proper term that a machinist would use rather than concentric? The world is full of miss terminology, try calling sinclair Sinclair, Midway and ask for a TIR gauge they would have no idea what you were talking about but they could find a tool to measure the tir,....it's commonly called a Concentricity gauge
Wayne.

Stiles,
You totally took what I said out of context, What I said I said in good humor meaning the whole world calls them concentricity Gauges, I even further backed that up by taking the word you used gage and added the correct form Gauge, half the world calls it a gage and the other half calls it a gauge, 9/10ths of the world calls it a concentricity gauge when you and I really know it isn't measuring concentricity, I further made it a point to add a smiley face and not !!!?? : ??? Then Vern made a post NOT YOU!! and I corrected the use of the word Gage and Gauge and finished with a wink Now you took it all out of context of what I meant and was trying to convey and to further proof your point you made it a point to point out you worked with a $80000 part on your Lathe today and implied I was a welfare rat or something when in fact you know nothing about me or you would know I work with million dollar pieces of equipment every day and we have a state of the art Machine shop at our facility and four smaller machine shops through out the plant so put that in your pipe and smoke it!!
Wayne.

Aww that didn't go the way you though it should did it? Your the one what wanted to clown around because you don't understand the GD&T differences of TIR and concentricity and you got it put back in your face. Good show, you still haven't shown any real technical knowledge on the subject but a bunch of boo hoo you don't know me I work with expensive equipment. I don't run a lathe I run a Trevisan DS-600, go a head and price that (a new one is x2.5 what you quoted you work with, I'm just saying). But you work with equipment that had a hefty price tag and don't know the difference between concentricity and TIR. Why are you bragging, your pretty much just saying you technically suck at GD&T for having that type of responsibility.

 

[mikecr]

I believe necchi's drawing perfectly shows 'form' error as the cartridge is not STRAIGHT.
I also believe it can be considered concentric, or not, depending on the centerline taken.
With this, the cartridge would not actually indicate much eccentricity on an H&H, but if you rolled it on a Sinclair every bit of that error would indicate as TIR.

 

[bozo699]

Stiles your not worth my time and I am not going to have a pissing match with you on here, all that are commenting but you are my friends and you could be but you want to be a arrogant ***** instead!! I am a professional Journeyman Electrician/Technician at a large ammunition plant if it is any of your business, I am not a professional Machinist like yourself but understand mechanics and have a working knowledge of what you do, I have at least 100 coworkers that are my friends and they are Machinists, so yes I do know something, the information you are spewing can easily be obtained with a click of a button on the WWW, I had this conversation over a year ago with mikecr and he explained what you are then so I don't know why he is asking you these questions as he already knows the answers to them. I am not boo hooing about anything and I fully understand what non-concentric ammo is and I know how to make concentric ammo with no help from you what so ever, if you cannot be civil to me then keep your mouth shut and I will give you the same courtesy! Oh and by the way I am no Nazi and I take offence to you implying it.
Wayne.

P.S Stiles, Please do not reply to this or any other post I make!!

 

[mikecr]

I've been accused of being a jerk, and don't wanna be.
So now I poke around softly in discussion until things seem to make sense.

 

[Killshot]

I don't run a lathe I run a Trevisan DS-600, go a head and price that (a new one is x2.5 what you quoted you work with, I'm just saying). But you work with equipment that had a hefty price tag and don't know the difference between concentricity and TIR. Why are you bragging, your pretty much just saying you technically suck at GD&T for having that type of responsibility.

This guy was being a pedantic **** in another "concentricity" thread back in 2010
and then pops up here with no posts in between?

Someone has issues.

 

[bozo699]

I don't run a lathe I run a Trevisan DS-600, go a head and price that (a new one is x2.5 what you quoted you work with, I'm just saying). But you work with equipment that had a hefty price tag and don't know the difference between concentricity and TIR. Why are you bragging, your pretty much just saying you technically suck at GD&T for having that type of responsibility.

This guy was being a pedantic **** in another "concentricity" thread back in 2010
and then pops up here with no posts in between?

Someone has issues.

Killshot,
Thank you for pointing that out, I let my temper foil my better judgment, if I am having trouble with someone or I am having doubts with there comments and I don't know them I usually look up there past posts to see what type of person I am dealing with, I did not do that with the person in question, most all 24 posts wrote in a 6 year span have been sarcastic and spiteful, thank you for opening my eyes I should have checked it out before I made comments and it would have saved my blood pressure and making crude comments of my own. After reading all 24 posts I see he had called Mikecr a idiot once before on the same subject thanks again killshot and my apologies to all but one for my rants, I may remove them later.
Wayne.

 

[jp]

Ok guys here's my question? If I want to measure case wall thickness and run out of finished products (bullets) which would due the best with out buying multiple tools...Neco?

thx

 

[Marlene]

concentricity seems to me to be yet another one of those reloading techniques that makes perfect sense in terms of logic but I have never seen any proof one way or another to show that it matters – seems like there is a lot of this type of techniques in reloading.

Anyone know where one might find some write-up that would qualify as scientific proof?

Rifle Accuracy Facts by Harold Vaughn is the book you are looking for.

 

[stiles]

I believe necchi's drawing perfectly shows 'form' error as the cartridge is not STRAIGHT.

The view he supplies is a cross section over the length of the assembly so you can not see any potential roundness errors (the simplest type of form error). It does show a derived centerline (which would be the derived median points in the definition of concentricity) so this is a concentricity error. Now if he had another view from the top down cross section of the two components that could show say the bullet or brass in an oval shape this would be a roundness error. That would be a form error. Both concentricity and roundness errors would show up at indicated runout.

Did you check out the video I posted? Look at the example where the centerline is the same (concentric) but the outside diameter is oval shape for an example of a perfectly concentric part with a form error that causes indicated runout.

I also believe it can be considered concentric, or not, depending on the centerline taken.
With this, the cartridge would not actually indicate much eccentricity on an H&H, but if you rolled it on a Sinclair every bit of that error would indicate as TIR.

The difference in the amount of indicator movement has to do with the location of the indicator relative to the selected datums (sinclair has two datums on the brass and the indicator on the bullet, the H&H has one datum on the end of the brass and the tip of the bullet and the indicator on the bullet close to the case neck). Both would show the concentricity error but the amount of indicator movement is relative to the selection of the datums to the indicator location.

 

[necchi]

Dear stiles,

Who cares,, your point has already been taken in it's full and intended context.

For the Good members of this forum;

 

[bigedp51]

bozo699

If you like I could go get fguffey to "straighten" all this out.

P.S. Please don't tell me to "get bent". (it would be off topic) :

 

[rwk]

Whats the price of the 21 tool.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Dear stiles,

Who cares,, your point has already been taken in it's full and intended context.

For the Good members of this forum;

Necchi - absolutely brilliant, my thoughts exactly.

 

[bozo699]

bozo699

If you like I could go get fguffey to "straighten" all this out.

P.S. Please don't tell me to "get bent". (it would be off topic) :

BigEd,
You know how much it would hurt for me to laugh or think anything you would have to say is right or funny but that's funny right there ;D,...You know I think you have someting there The guffer and the real smart guy on here (I refuse to mention his name)have a lot in common,....they both have a lot to say but make no sense, talk in riddles and rhymes, and they like stirring the pot,..what the heck bring him on
Wayne.

 

[21shooter]

rwk Here is the link www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Concentricity_Gauge.php
Thanks, John

 

[navyrad8r]

Wayne,
i got your back...i am sure the majority of the forum feels the same. As for the original post, i went with the 21st century CONCETRICITY GAUGE . i use a few of john's tools and all of them are top quality! he is very easy to work with and welcomes feedback, especiallywhen it improves his tools.
cheers,
Doc

 

[bigedp51]

BigEd,
You know how much it would hurt for me to laugh or think anything you would have to say is right or funny but that's funny right there ;D,...You know I think you have someting there The guffer and the real smart guy on here (I refuse to mention his name)have a lot in common,....they both have a lot to say but make no sense, talk in riddles and rhymes, and they like stirring the pot,..what the heck bring him on
Wayne.

Dear bozo699

Sadly I can't bring him on, I'm on a 14 day suspension from The High Road Forum for telling fguffey to get bent.

There once was a reloader from Nantucket
Who kept his Concentricity Guage in a bucket.
He had a daughter named Nan
Who read this posting and ran.
And, as for the bucket, just chuck it..............