Carbon remover
- Thread starter andybrock
- Start date
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Any time that this subject it seems that carbon, or powder fouling remedies get confused with what to do about hard carbon. Simple powder fouling, sometimes referred to as carbon can be removed by solvents brushes and patches. Hard carbon, to my knowledge, cannot, and requires CAREFUL use of an abrasive of some sort.
Some powders do not produce hard carbon, others do. There may also be an issue with load pressure, and a caliber's expansion ratio. The best way to detect hard carbon is with a bore scope, after a very thorough conventional cleaning. Sometimes it can be so slight as to be difficult to see. There can be differences in barrels with regard to their tendencies to develop this sort of deposit.
In any case, we need to remember that barrels are replaceable wear items (or as a friend observed, "That's why they are threaded.") that may need to be maintained in ways that trade a little life in the pursuit of a larger goal, accuracy. The trick is to be careful enough so as to minimize this tradeoff.
Some powders do not produce hard carbon, others do. There may also be an issue with load pressure, and a caliber's expansion ratio. The best way to detect hard carbon is with a bore scope, after a very thorough conventional cleaning. Sometimes it can be so slight as to be difficult to see. There can be differences in barrels with regard to their tendencies to develop this sort of deposit.
In any case, we need to remember that barrels are replaceable wear items (or as a friend observed, "That's why they are threaded.") that may need to be maintained in ways that trade a little life in the pursuit of a larger goal, accuracy. The trick is to be careful enough so as to minimize this tradeoff.
There is a number of ways to remove hard baked on carbon Boyd, without resorting to the use of abrasives. During my drag racings days of old, we removed the hard baked on carbon (not powder) by holding the linkage on the carburetors partially open, and allow a small steady steam of water from a Coke bottle to trickle into the carb. You could hold a towel at the back of the headers and catch the pieces of carbon that popped off from the valves. Now here we are in modern times, and another way to remove that carbon is with a shot of Nitrous Oxide 
Of course, the barrel is going to have to be warm 
Experimentation goes a long way 8)
Of course, the barrel is going to have to be warm Experimentation goes a long way 8)BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
When you actually do this, please make a video of the process being done on a rifle barrel. It would need to start with some "footage" showing the carbon deposit, and means by which it was determined that it was truly hard carbon, and not just common powder fouling. This would be followed by footage of the actual cleaning, and finally by a shot of the results. Somehow I doubt that readers are going to run out an buy a bottle of NO2 to use on their barrels. What do you think? The competition shooters that use powders that produce hard carbon, and want to maintain their barrels' accuracy, to my knowledge, use some form of abrasive (carefully and judiciously) to deal with the issue. None of them that I am aware of chuck up a rod brush and abrasive combination in a drill. At this point, for me to believe that some other practical method would accomplish this particular task, I would have to actually see it done.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
JRS -
Your drag racing carbon removal days with NOS was with the engines running, from the multiple combustion cycles occurring each minute (RPM), with cylinder temperatures of +1000-degrees, was it not?
Explain how to conform a NOS method to carbon removal in rifle barrels?
I have a bottle of NOS, solenoids, lines, jets, etc., etc......, all off a 69' Camaro that I use to "spray and play".
Just need you to tell me how to make it work in my barrels to remove carbon......
Thanks
Donovan
Your drag racing carbon removal days with NOS was with the engines running, from the multiple combustion cycles occurring each minute (RPM), with cylinder temperatures of +1000-degrees, was it not?
Explain how to conform a NOS method to carbon removal in rifle barrels?
I have a bottle of NOS, solenoids, lines, jets, etc., etc......, all off a 69' Camaro that I use to "spray and play".
Just need you to tell me how to make it work in my barrels to remove carbon......
Thanks
Donovan
I recall a conversation you and I shared a number of years ago Boyd, when I dropped off a Rockchucker, and Lee Classic Cast press with the I&C (instruments and controls) department at the nuke plant at which I was working at the time. I honestly can't remember whether we discussed the outcome. The Lee press was determined to be the most accurate, in regards to the actual straight and lateral line dimensions. Probably the reason I continue to use my Classic Cast presses rather than my Rockchucker. I have yet to engage in any type of video, but will try my best to show how nitrous works in conjunction with something hot, related to carbon.
I'll talk it over with you via telephone Donovan. I'll share this with you, since you know something about NOS. Remember how we used to drive back up the the return lane after the 1320, raise the hood and hose down the radiator to cool that baby down? Myself and a good friend from Japan figured out a way to use a NOS to cool the water and radiator in a matter of 60 seconds. We attached a fitting to the top and bottom tanks and squeezed a 75 shot blast into it! I did the same thing with the turbo lag problem on a B16 when coming off the line. I hooked up a line directly to the turbo, actuated with a switch on the bottom of the gas pedal to spool it up immediately 8) I also custom fabricated piping and intercoolers for turbos and superchargers, with a modification on the intercooler tanks to squeeze a shot of NOS to chill the intercoolers!dmoran said:
I tell what we do. we bore coat all of are rifle barrels. after each time we shoot we use K-G 1 carbon remover. we wipe the case neck and never have to use tumblers. 3 to 4 patches down barrel with jag only and barrel is super clean. also if you shoot muzzleloaders there is no better way to clean. 3 patches and done! if barrel coppers bad use K-G 12 and it will get it. check out enternet and see it was only product to etch a bullet in 24 hrs.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
In competitive benchrest, the difference between a winning barrel and one that is not is impossible to determine except by shooting. Both are equally expensive. Before I would risk treating a barrel that was intended for that use, I would have to see very convincing proof that there was no chance that it would degrade accuracy in any way. No test using a non benchrest rifle, or one that was, shot by someone without the proper credentials, would suffice. On the other hand, for applications that are less critical, a trial might be interesting. This is not to say that there are not serious competitors that have the budget to test this sort of thing, just to my knowledge none have. If I were the manufacturer, and I was sure of my product, I think that I would sponsor such a test, as the ultimate proof of the value of my product.
andybrock said:
Yeah, it sounds complicated but the simple reality is, bore cleaning chemicals advertised as carbon solvents are non-functional…, in terms of removing hard, burnt-on carbon deposits from the bore.
I’m afraid the days when a regular guy could get his hands on solvent that would quickly clean a carburetor are long gone. I fondly remember those days. These days, most stuff advertised as carbon remover solvent for bore cleaning is pure BS. I have used many of them, and yes, I have owned a borescope for several years.
Abrasives are really the best answer for removal of hard burnt-on carbon from the bore. I use bronze brushes regularly and abrasive pastes when necessary. I can’t say that this has made me shoot any better, but it takes away one excuse for not shooting as well as I would like.
When bore cleaning at home I rinse my bronze brushes in a jar of lacquer thinner. Those bronze brushes remove a lot of carbon in a hurry!
This is the stuff that builds up in your bore if you are a non-abrasive, carbon solvent believer.
Does this help answer the original question?
LawrenceHanson said:andybrock said:
Yeah, it sounds complicated but the simple reality is, bore cleaning chemicals advertised as carbon solvents are non-functional…, in terms of removing hard, burnt-on carbon deposits from the bore.
I’m afraid the days when a regular guy could get his hands on solvent that would quickly clean a carburetor are long gone. I fondly remember those days. These days, most stuff advertised as carbon remover solvent for bore cleaning is pure BS. I have used many of them, and yes, I have owned a borescope for several years.
Abrasives are really the best answer for removal of hard burnt-on carbon from the bore. I use bronze brushes regularly and abrasive pastes when necessary. I can’t say that this has made me shoot any better, but it takes away one excuse for not shooting as well as I would like.
When bore cleaning at home I rinse my bronze brushes in a jar of lacquer thinner. Those bronze brushes remove a lot of carbon in a hurry!
This is the stuff that builds up in your bore if you are a non-abrasive, carbon solvent believer.
Does this help answer the original question?
It's been an interesting thread thanks to all who contributed. It seems to me good old hardwork, paste, bronze brushes seem to be the best method for the hard burnt on stuff. I suppose the trick, where possible is to keep the barrel cleaned regularly so you don't get the hard build up? also an investment in a borescope looks imminent!
Thanks again for the input
Andy
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I would add one more thing, that may have already been mentioned, don't use abrasives with any combination that involves a bronze brush, even to hold a patch. The pressure from the tips of the bristles can cause an action that is like a lap, rather than just cleaning, that is why I use the softest nylon brushes, the black ones that Dewey sells with IOSSO when I need to spot clean hard carbon in the back of the barrel. Also remember that abrasives will, over time, modify the lapped finish of a match grade stainless barrel, polishing it to an undesirable degree that would cause copper fouling if it occured in the front of the barrel where bullets are traveling at a higher velocity. For that reason I confine my work with IOSSO in particular to the back of the barrel where the hard carbon is, working with short strokes, which can be easily be done with a soft nylon brush. I do this in no more than the back 8-10 inches of the barrel where the problem is. I got this method out of Precision Shooting, as related by or about Tony Boyer. I had always wondered why he did this, when I could not see any carbon issues in my barrels, until it dawned on me that at the time we were shooting different powders. He was shooting that lot of surplus 8208 called T powder, and I was using 133, which is very clean and does not require the use of abrasives to keep barrels clean.
Geronimo Jim
Gold $$ Contributor
If I remember correctly, the directions on the Isso tube says to use a patch.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Geronimo Jim said:
IOSSO's instructions is to use there Eliminator brushes and Eliminator Triple Action Oil, applying the oil into the barrel first, then applying Iosso sparingly to the Eliminator brush. There brushes are plastic/nylon (blue), that are stiffer then many other brands.
From my experience, and as Boyd states above, I recommend not to use a bronze brush with IOSSO.
I recommend and find stiffer plastic/nylon brushes to be more effective and work with less strokes/passes then soft brushes.
The bore-scope tells me that some softer brushes are almost useless and/or ineffective with IOSSO.
And strongly suggest to use IOSSO's application instructions, recommended brushes, and fallow-on removal process.
Donovan
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.