Bullet modification dies worth the trouble?

[Steve Cover]

Hi,

Lately, I've been looking into 22 LR bullet modification dies.

Poco Kelly and others offer several different variations.
Since you guys are the accuracy minded forum, I'm asking, "are they worth the trouble and cost?"
This of course opens the discussion to weighing cartridges and measuring rim thickness too.

Opinions please.

Steve

 

[ultramag44]

Hi Steve,

The main value in these units is to adjust the diameter of a .22 bullet to fit an oversize bore.

Someone may have a classic or very rare .22 rifle, which, in all other respects is perfect, except for a bore that is rather roomy and giving casual accuracy. Rebarreling would ruin the rifles value. So, making ammo fit the barrel is the alternative.

In an otherwise good barrel, there is no reason to adjust the bullet. Indeed, many diciplines forbid modifying ammo.

Weighing cartridges and measuring rim thickness is generally considered a waste of time. The little advantage that may (and most of us don't think there is) be gained cannot change powder charges or bullet weight.

Just pay the price for good ammo and you have removed one variable from the accuracy question.

Regards, ultramag44

 

[Steve Cover]

Thanks,

That what I thought too.

Steve

 

[Steve Cover]

Forgot to ask....
Do you have any recommendations for good accurate ammo for a noncompetitive shooter?

Steve

 

[Outrider27]

With regard to weighing ammo and measuring rim thickness, our experience has been that weighing ammo didn't result in any increase in accuracy (probably because it doesn't single out one individual element - too many different things that can change a cartridge's weight; you don't know if the difference in weight is the bullet, powder charge or cartridge case, amount of lube or what). Sorting by rim thickness has definitely show an increase in accuracy, and, up to about 0.040" or 0.041", accuracy improves as rim thickness increases. You will also find that high grade match ammo tends to have a much smaller range of rim thicknesses (we generally group by 0.001" thickness intervals), and that it tends to be in the upper half of the usual thickness range that sorting a couple of bricks of bulk ammo will expose you to.

We use a certain amount of eyeball interpolation of the dial indicator reading in our sorting - if, instead of exactly 0.038", it reads over 0.0375" or less than 0.0385" as read on the dial with the Mark I eyeball of the needle position, it goes in the 0.038" bag. Our favorite tool (because it is both quick and accurate) is the rimfire cartridge gage made by Bill Gebhardt of Gebhardt Machine Company in Lockhaven, PA.

 

[jfremder]

With regard to weighing ammo and measuring rim thickness, our experience has been that weighing ammo didn't result in any increase in accuracy (probably because it doesn't single out one individual element - too many different things that can change a cartridge's weight; you don't know if the difference in weight is the bullet, powder charge or cartridge case, amount of lube or what). Sorting by rim thickness has definitely show an increase in accuracy, and, up to about 0.040" or 0.041", accuracy improves as rim thickness increases. You will also find that high grade match ammo tends to have a much smaller range of rim thicknesses (we generally group by 0.001" thickness intervals), and that it tends to be in the upper half of the usual thickness range that sorting a couple of bricks of bulk ammo will expose you to.

We use a certain amount of eyeball interpolation of the dial indicator reading in our sorting - if, instead of exactly 0.038", it reads over 0.0375" or less than 0.0385" as read on the dial with the Mark I eyeball of the needle position, it goes in the 0.038" bag. Our favorite tool (because it is both quick and accurate) is the rimfire cartridge gage made by Bill Gebhardt of Gebhardt Machine Company in Lockhaven, PA.

YMMV, but our personal experience has been that rim thickness sorting has NOT proved valuable, and weight sorting has, at least in our limited testing. We have been shooting a 300y weekly steel match at our club with .22LR for three years. (Not a typo, it is 300y) For inexpensive ammo choices, CCI Blazer sorted by weight reduced flyers by nearly half, and overall group size by over an inch at 300y. Rim thickness sorting did nothing.

 

[Travelor]

The original poster asked about bullet modification dies. I have both the Paco and the Waltz dies. The PACO's major design "weakness" is that it used a hammer blow which is not precisely repeatable from blow to blow as I feel comfortable with. The Waltz die works uniformly every time as it uses a reloading press, but I have not found it to make marginal ammo into good ammo and good ammo does not seem to benefit from its use. As an aside - the PACO tool will make one hell of a hollow pointed bullet which is really lethal on small game bullet.


I shoot a LOT of 22LR on targets anywhere from 40 meters to 200 yards. I have a pretty good lot of Eley Pistol EPS but have experienced occasional "dropped" shots resulting in a 9 or 8. A real PIA when the wind gods are favorable and the scores are coming great. I tried rim thickness sorting and got no where with that method.

I have been weighing rounds for the past year and have been able to stop the unexplained lows. I have a scale that can weigh to the .02 grain as the "normal +/- .1 scales are not accurate enough to allow meaningful weight sorting.

I have found it interesting that after weight sorting (I group ammo to +/- .04 grains) that the segregated groups shoot very well when shot together so I am not loosing round unless they are WAY off, say .3 grains. I use these rounds for "heaters" to warm and condition the barrel after cleaning or a cool down period.

My results with this method has resulted in many 1600 -145 +/- X's on the 160 shot NRA SB course (100 shots at 50 yards and 60 shots at 100 yards) of prone fire. So I am convinced that weight sorting works.

BTW, I use a GemPro 250 for weighing. Be sure to turn it on about 1 hour before use and keep an eye on the scale with a check weight periodically as it can "wander".

 

[ultramag44]

Forgot to ask....
Do you have any recommendations for good accurate ammo for a noncompetitive shooter?

Steve

Steve, Eley Club (Orange Box) is very, very good for the price and given your parameters, may suprise you how accurate your rifle really is!

50 yard, 5-shot groups. Shot from a Remington 513-T, NOT a match rifle by the stretch of anyones imagination! Scope is a Weaver T-25 25X

https://www.goodshootinginc.com/index.php?productID=672

 

[moorepower]

I have a Waltz die and it "can" improve accuracy, but not always. It also makes an kick a$$ hollow point bullet. In my findings, weight sorting has made much more improvement than rim thickness. measuring to the bands on the bullet and weight sorting seems to help quite a bit, but still won't touch Wolf MT on the average.

 

[Shynloco]

Steve,
IMHO, there are several factors involved in attaining best accuracy with a particular rifle. The ammunition is but one of those factors, however an important one. To me, matching ammunition to ones rifle is a key ingredient and there is NO substitute for that matching no matter how much (or how little) measuring or modification you make. Another important factor is the rifle itself that you are using. By that I mean you cannot reasonably expect a $500 rifle to shoot like a $3,000, although my $1250 Rimfire Anschutz has outshoot several custom built Rimfire rifles in local competitions and that where I have done no NO measuring or weighing of ammo, yet the other competitors have weighed their ammo while using a Match Grade Rifle. My point is simply that I took great pains and expense to conduct several testing in both weigh ammo and measuring ammos and yet finding the best MATCH of ammo to my specific rifle, produced the best results. Guess it might boil down to what you feel works the best in your particular rifle as it is well documented that Rimfire rifles are extremely picky about the ammo used that very much is important to having that rifle produce the best results possible. Now there is also one important variable that one blog member points out in all calibers, and that is simply that at some point, the greatest weakness in accuracy becomes the shooter themselves.

Alex

 

[Steve Cover]

Steve, Eley Club (Orange Box) is very, very good for the price and given your parameters, may suprise you how accurate your rifle really is!

50 yard, 5-shot groups. Shot from a Remington 513-T, NOT a match rifle by the stretch of anyones imagination! Scope is a Weaver T-25 25X

https://www.goodshootinginc.com/index.php?productID=672

WOW!!

I'll definitely give that a try

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Steve Cover]

Steve,
IMHO, there are several factors involved in attaining best accuracy with a particular rifle.
<<< SNIP >>>
By that I mean you cannot reasonably expect a $500 rifle to shoot like a $3,000.
<<< SNIP >>>
Guess it might boil down to what you feel works the best in your particular rifle as it is well documented that Rimfire rifles are extremely picky about the ammo used that very much is important to having that rifle produce the best results possible.
<<< SNIP >>>
Alex

Thanks Alex,
I'm a disabled vet living off my VA disability....
There isn't any $500.00, let alone a $3,000.00 rifle in my future.
I have a 56 year old Remington 512 that I got on my 6th birthday and a 10-22 with an aftermarket tension barrel.
Both rifles shoot well, but I was hoping that I might tweak the ammo a bit for a little better accuracy.
Tin can rolling and ground squirrel hunting is about all my broken body will tolerate anymore.

Thanks for your advice,

Steve

 

[Steve Cover]

I have a Waltz die and it "can" improve accuracy, but not always. It also makes an kick a$$ hollow point bullet. In my findings, weight sorting has made much more improvement than rim thickness. measuring to the bands on the bullet and weight sorting seems to help quite a bit, but still won't touch Wolf MT on the average.

Improved terminal ballistics is also important to me as I can still hunt ground squirrels.

I've looked at the Poco Kelly kit.
Hammer.... No problem.
Just cut off a cartridge case (357?) to fit over the forming pin.
This can be put into a reloading press between two small sheets of metal.
Exactly the same amount of forming each time.

The Neal Waltz kit looks great, but the price!!

I also have looked at a kit by D-rock (Derrick Thornton) that is about half way between Poco and Neil.

I'm on a tight budge and don't want to waste any bucks that I don't have to.
But if I can improve the accuracy and terminal ballistics on inexpensive (not junk) 22 shells, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Thanks for the input.

Steve

 

[langenc]

Posted by travelor--

I have found it interesting that after weight sorting (I group ammo to +/- .04 grains) that the segregated groups shoot very well when shot together so I am not loosing round unless they are WAY off, say .3 grains. I use these rounds for "heaters" to warm and condition the barrel after cleaning or a cool down period.


What scale will weigh to those standards?? 0.02, 0.03 grains??

 

[moorepower]

What the weight sorting and resizing did for me was cut down on fliers mostly. My main goal was to be able to uniform and make a h.p. bullet out of any round nose ammo. If/when the ammo situation kind of levels out, do your self a favor and try the WW Power Point ammo. I have never had a high velocity .22lr that could touch it for accuracy and stopping power on ground rats. Steve p.m. me your address.

 

[ebb]

Steve I dint want to crash your thread but a PM to ultra mag 44 hasn't been responded too. I wanted to ask if ultra mag 44 would tell me how the scope was mounted to his 513T? I have one and haven't made up my mine if I will use weaver mounts or buy a strip of 3/8s dovetail material. his looks to be weaver mounts but is hard to tell, I had thought they would look bulky on a 22 but his however it is mounted looks good. thanks