Worth sorting by firings?

[Colorado S14]

I thought I would poll the group prior to getting in to any significant personal testing. With cartridges where primer pockets are the limiting factor in brass life do you believe it is worth sorting between twice, three, four, etc. time. fired brass?

I’ve been reloading a lot of 224 Valkyrie lately and the primer pockets definitely go out before you have to worry about any sort of case had separation or other brass life failures. I recently picked up a primer pocket go/no-go gauge. Of course I separate new brass from fired brass, but, after the first firing do you think I would be giving up much accuracy (precision) by just dumping it all into a fired bucket and just pulling cases as they fail the pocket gauge?

Thanks for your take.

 

[waverly]

Yes I keep mine segregated by number of times fired. Lose primer pockets on match brass become sighters until they become too lose then they are tossed.

I sort all match, and to a lesser degree hunting brass this way. Hunting trips always get once fired brass.


Hope this helps, Waverly

 

[ShootDots]

As long as you have properly prepped brass, don't over-pressure the cases and anneal them, cases can last a long time. I keep cases together in 100 piece lots. They are shot together and they stay together>>> barrels will wear out before the brass goes bad. I had a 260A.I. that I shot, without any ill-effects accuracy wise, and 200 pieces of brass lasted thru 3 barrels!

 

[LCazador]

Frankly speaking sounds like you're really stepping on the brass. With that said yeah it won't make any difference for your shooting purposes.

 

[oley55]

Unless you never anneal, or anneal after every firing, segregating is the only method I can think of to track this activity. Also I'd like to know down the road just how many firings my brass will take. I only bump the shoulders two thousands, and case separation should never be a factor, but checking for case stretch leading to head separation is something I watch for. I'd hate to have to toss all of my brass because I had no way of identifying those with the same number of firings that are nearing case head separation.

So yes, I keep them sorted by firings. But not necessarily for accuracy.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Prep 100 ready to go, if youre going to shoot 25 one day load 25. Put them back in that same 100rd box with the prepped brass. Next time you go load up as many as you need and do the same thing. Once that 100 is shot start over. Theyre all fired once at that point

 

[T-shooter]

Don't set the shoulders back any more than necessary. That will lead to case head separation. If the fired case will chamber easily, good enough, just size the neck and check the overall length.

 

[XTR]

If you are pushing hard it will make it easier to know what brass is going to lose primer pockets.

 

[Colorado S14]

As demonstrated in this article there is not a ton of rhyme or reason as to when they go. This is why I figure that, so long as it’s not detrimental to accuracy, it may make the most sense just test them with the primer pocket gauge and not worry about keeping them separated by number of firings.
https://ultimatereloader.com/2018/12/16/results-224-valkyrie-starline-brass-torture-test/

 

[Ned Ludd]

As demonstrated in this article there is not a ton of rhyme or reason as to when they go. This is why I figure that, so long as it’s not detrimental to accuracy, it may make the most sense just test them with the primer pocket gauge and not worry about keeping them separated by number of firings.
https://ultimatereloader.com/2018/12/16/results-224-valkyrie-starline-brass-torture-test/

One thing you know with certainty, as the number of firings goes up, so do the odds that a primer pocket will loosen up. There are two caveats to be considered from the article you linked above. First is that the author only tested Starline brass - the results with another manufacturer's brass may differ. In fact, the casehead of Starline .223 Rem brass is extremely thick and durable relative to some manufacturer's cases. The second is that the casehead will work harden over time as the number of firings increase. There is likely a point at which further firings may be increasing the resistance of the primer pockets to opening up as the case becomes work-hardened. In other words, not all cases succumb to pressure after only 4 shots. However, the ones that actually do last longer might actually last a lot longer due to work-hardening of the casehead.

The primary reasons for keeping brass sorted by the number of firings are safety, and the fact that it's generally considered a good practice for precision reloaders to sort, segregate, and keep close track of the components they're using. Keeping brass sorted by Lot# and the number of firings does not prevent anyone from using a Swage gauge during each additional brass prep to check primer pockets and cull those cases that are too loose to hold a primer. I run a fairly stout load of H4895 underneath a Berger 90 VLD in F-TR competitions (.223 Rem), which is quite hard on brass. With Lapua brass, I typically get somewhere between 1 and 5 firings per case, the majority of cases being around 3 to 4 firings. For obvious reasons, I keep each brass prep segregated based on Lot# and the total number of firings, and the Swage gauge tool is used to determine which cases get culled (tossed) after each firing as an indispensable part of the process.

 

[Colorado S14]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Based on the responses it seems that nobody is concerned about a difference in standard deviation or precision between numbers of firings but rather safety. Given that with 224 Valkyrie I should never be at risk of separated case heads or other catastrophic failure but rather lose primer pockets. It seems that once a case has been fired I can just cull them from the rest of the group using the primer pocket gauge and go from there.

 

[Old Navy]

One thing you know with certainty, as the number of firings goes up, so do the odds that a primer pocket will loosen up. There are two caveats to be considered from the article you linked above. First is that the author only tested Starline brass - the results with another manufacturer's brass may differ. In fact, the casehead of Starline .223 Rem brass is extremely thick and durable relative to some manufacturer's cases. The second is that the casehead will work harden over time as the number of firings increase. There is likely a point at which further firings may be increasing the resistance of the primer pockets to opening up as the case becomes work-hardened. In other words, not all cases succumb to pressure after only 4 shots. However, the ones that actually do last longer might actually last a lot longer due to work-hardening of the casehead.

The primary reasons for keeping brass sorted by the number of firings are safety, and the fact that it's generally considered a good practice for precision reloaders to sort, segregate, and keep close track of the components they're using. Keeping brass sorted by Lot# and the number of firings does not prevent anyone from using a Swage gauge during each additional brass prep to check primer pockets and cull those cases that are too loose to hold a primer. I run a fairly stout load of H4895 underneath a Berger 90 VLD in F-TR competitions (.223 Rem), which is quite hard on brass. With Lapua brass, I typically get somewhere between 1 and 5 firings per case, the majority of cases being around 3 to 4 firings. For obvious reasons, I keep each brass prep segregated based on Lot# and the total number of firings, and the Swage gauge tool is used to determine which cases get culled (tossed) after each firing as an indispensable part of the process.

 

[Old Navy]

You only get 1 to 5 firings with Lapua brass! What smoking hot load are you shooting?

 

[Ned Ludd]

You only get 1 to 5 firings with Lapua brass! What smoking hot load are you shooting?

It's not all that hot. Pushing a 90 gr bullet from the small .223 Rem case at reasonable velocity is asking a lot to begin with. Further, Lapua .223 Rem brass doesn't have the thickest/heaviest casehead available in .223 Rem brass, which also means shorter primer pocket life with warm loads. The exact same load in Starline brass, which has a much thinker casehead than Lapua, will probably last at least twice as many firings, or more. That alone tells you that the brass itself is a contributing factor. According to QuickLoad estimates, that particular load is running at only ~2K psi over SAAMI max (57K psi vs 55K psi SAAMI max), which fits pretty well with the brass life based on my experience running it over the years. It's also worth noting that I do not typically see pierced or cratered primers, ejector swipes, or any other obvious pressures signs with that load. Nonetheless, it's hard on the primer pockets. I know quite a few other F-TR shooters that have also used that same load for years without issue, other than the relatively poor brass life.

So although it's a bit warm, I wouldn't classify it as unsafe, although everyone is entitled to their own opinion about that. In general, it's not uncommon for F-Class shooters to get far fewer firings from their brass than a typical casual shooter might. We run warm loads to optimize performance, and reduced brass life can sometimes be the result. Due to the chamber throat dimensions that are optimized for long, heavy, high BC bullets, 30"+ barrel lengths, and other competition-specific differences in rifle setups, pretty much no one that's competitive in F-Class is running a load that's anywhere close to what you'll find listed in reloading manual. That's one reason why F-Class shooters are sometimes reluctant to share load specifics at online shooting forums.

 

[dcali]

I’ve smoked Lapua brass in two firings with loads thar were a little above max but not obscenely hot. It was large primer .308 brass using 215s. I don’t recommend doing this. It’s bad for your wallet and your bolt face. I have a feeling it’s not just peak pressure but barrel time as well that wrecks the brass. Anecdotally, it seems like heavy bullets tear up brass (and barrels) faster than light bullets. I have no data to support that claim, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s true.

 

[D-4297]

+1 on what Damoncali said . I also shoot TR with a .308 , but use Lapua SRP brass for exactly the reason he stated . Tried the Large Primer brass once with my "normal" Comp load . Fired three rounds ...Had three blown-out primers . Then I got to pull 27 rounds apart because of my curiosity . And I load "warm" , but not on the edge of destruction . Over half of rounds I run are 200 Hybrids and 200.20x , along with 185 Juggs & 185 Hybrids . And my own anecdotal evidence supports his regarding heavy bullets being harder on both brass and barrels .

 

[Fotheringill]

For mental health and economy reasons, follow what Dusty suggested.

Mental Health- If you are mixing brass, even same brand, stamp, etc., you will have chamfered at different times, squeezed the necks down at different times, loaded with different loads, and a number of other things. What happens when, all of a sudden, a case neck splits, or a case starts to separate? Why? Is it you, the brass, the load You may have mixed relatively new brass with those you have fired forty times. Do you toss out the whole batch, with caution prevailing, when you only needed to toss out your oldest cases, which brings us to economy, responded to above. Those little plastic boxes from MEC don't cost diddly when compared to tossing 150 cases instead of 50 or less.