Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

[Curious]

Guys,

Can anyone point me in the direction of any discussions about Bryan Litz's recent findings/opinions on barrel tuners?

I dont subscribe to his channel and to be honest Im not wanting to listen to his 2hr long podcast on the subject. I would just like to hear what his findings and condensed opinion was and how it has been received by the shooing community.

Thanks

C

 

[Fuj]

'

 

[dgeesaman]

In a word, he did not get convincing, repeatable data that showed tuners worked in all test cases.

My opinion does not represent the shooting community. But tuners definitely stay close to the type of practices that are easily affected by confirmation bias: eg, shoot a sweep of the tuner, pick the best appearing node, and if it seems to continue shooting well you just leave it there and believe it’s working.

My other thought is maybe a tuner needs to be adjusted a bit more frequently than their test method allowed. Brian’s test used many rounds and I think many match shooters don’t expect a tuner setting to remain optimal for as long as their test method. But it’s not like the tuner nodes shifted slightly like powder charge or seating depth do. So I mention this as a possibility but not a working theory.

I suggest you consider his Vol III book and get the details of which tuners and equipment were tested and how. It may not be how you use or intend to use a tuner, and it’s a very good book for other reasons.

 

[lawman29]

Start at post #84

Barrel tuners

@gunsandgunsmithing knows that even though you explain everything on the adjustment of a tuner and what to do with it there are still some that won't listen and do it "their way", I've seen guys on the line take an oil filter wrench to move the tuner!! It doesn't need to be that tight. Another...

forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[okie]

'

lmao!!

 

[Beiruty]

Get the newest Litz' book it is worth money if you have enough free time to read it.

In short, he tried to test confirm that tuners are just barrel dampeners
The physics story is here:

Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's Rifle with/without a Tuner.

 

[BoydAllen]

From anyone who read his account, what was the test setup Bryan used? IMO the issue is not whether tuners work, but what they do. Several people who have actual verifiable records as successful benchrest shooters have said that tuners broaden tune nodes. IMO that alone is worth the price. Speaking of tuners used in short range group competition, for a long time the advice about how to adjust one was simply incorrect, pbased on more recently acquired knowledge people were moving them way too far, or at least were being told to. Tuners create an additional tuning variable. For some that is the problem because they cannot resist the temptation to move them when they should not. Gene Buckys said that after he had found the best node without a tuner, he would mount his tuner on the barrel, adjust it by additional tuning and then leave it alone, tuning with conventional methods to make adjustments for ambient conditions.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Ok i see it works in reality, now show me the theory.

 

[Beiruty]

From anyone who read his account, what was the test setup Bryan used? IMO the issue is not whether tuners work, but what they do. Several people who have actual verifiable records as successful benchrest shooters have said that tuners broaden tune nodes. IMO that alone is worth the price. Speaking of tuners used in short range group competition, for a long time the advice about how to adjust one was simply incorrect, pbased on more recently acquired knowledge people were moving them way too far, or at least were being told to. Tuners create an additional tuning variable. For some that is the problem because they cannot resist the temptation to move them when they should not. Gene Buckys said that after he had found the best node without a tuner, he would mount his tuner on the barrel, adjust it by additional tuning and then leave it alone, tuning with conventional methods to make adjustments for ambient conditions.

He tested 4 rifles, with hundreds of rounds
22LR
308 FTR
Another 308 FTR
6 Dasher

 

[F Class John]

No reflection on anyone else's testing but here's why I use them. I know how and why I use them and wouldn't be caught dead on the line without one anymore.

then validated BOTH rifles at 600yds. The gun labeled Pastel had the ammo 100% worked up for it and then the gun labeled BOLD was ONLY tuned using that same ammo from the Pastel gun. I know what I can do with them and that's all that matters to me.

 

[BoydAllen]

He tested 4 rifles, with hundreds of rounds
22LR
308 FTR
Another 308 FTR
6 Dasher

As what distance did he shoot the CF rifles? What about the RF? What was his load workup procedure? Was he shooting over what would be considered a full set of flags like is common in short range competition, that Bart also used to shoot his record at 600?

 

[TylerFromMS]

He tested 4 rifles, with hundreds of rounds
22LR
308 FTR
Another 308 FTR
6 Dasher

Only 1800 rounds. None of the rifles set up for pure precision… ie rail gun. Too many holes in theory and testing for me. Glad I skipped the theory and just bought tuners.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Can I take old hunting rifle I bought at a pawn shop add a tuner and become a world class shooter

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Can I take old hunting rifle I bought at a pawn shop add a tuner and become a world class shooter

A tuner can only give you the potential of the gun and load but not the other way around.

 

[BoydAllen]

Can I take old hunting rifle I bought at a pawn shop add a tuner and become a world class shooter

No you cannot.

 

[RickyK]

Is Litz going to be shooting at the F class Nationals ? Be a good place to put his theories to work !

 

[Bottom Fodder]

A tuner can only give you the potential of the gun and load but not the other way around.

So a custom built gun with proper load development is still not at it‘s full potential until you add a “tuner” among other bells and whistle. And I though I was the limiting factor

 

[RJScott]

Not a big time shooter in any classification - just like to tinker with reloading - shoot and enjoy the results. Recently read the article again. Reply 3 "In a word, he did not get convincing, repeatable data that showed tuners worked in all test cases" accurately states his findings. You need to read the article - as his list of variables he tried to address is impressive. He did find that the additional weight at the muzzle may positively affect results. He plans on studying that finding more at a later time.

Only gripe, his graphing of results appear to be in color - but he only prints them in black and white. Trying to visualize different shades of grey is useless. AB books are already not cheap. IMO - not sure how much adding color to the printing would be. However without it, the data is far less convincing (and less interesting to read) because you cannot see the results.

Did convince me that at my level of shooting - I don't need a "tuner."

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

So a custom built gun with proper load development is still not at it‘s full potential until you add a “tuner” among other bells and whistle. And I though I was the limiting factor

That's not what I said. If you're in perfect tune without a tuner, it won't make it more than perfectly tuned. But if your tune is leaving something on the table, a tuner can get that last bit. That said, I use a tuner to maintain peak tune over condition changes that would otherwise call for a change in powder charge. If you expect your wallet groups to get better, you don't understand what tuners do and using one to its potential is about recognizing tune, or lack of it on the target...just like powder tuning. They are easier to learn to use than learning to maintain tune with powder charge IMHO, and it's at your fingertips rather than the reload bench. And as Boyd mentioned, the nodes are a tad wider but I don't get too caught up in that aspect because the idea is to use it to maintain peak tune. Not to hope it stays there, but that certainly does have value and I'll take it.

 

[ASD9055]

In a word, he did not get convincing, repeatable data that showed tuners worked in all test cases.

My opinion does not represent the shooting community. But tuners definitely stay close to the type of practices that are easily affected by confirmation bias: eg, shoot a sweep of the tuner, pick the best appearing node, and if it seems to continue shooting well you just leave it there and believe it’s working.

My other thought is maybe a tuner needs to be adjusted a bit more frequently than their test method allowed. Brian’s test used many rounds and I think many match shooters don’t expect a tuner setting to remain optimal for as long as their test method. But it’s not like the tuner nodes shifted slightly like powder charge or seating depth do. So I mention this as a possibility but not a working theory.

I suggest you consider his Vol III book and get the details of which tuners and equipment were tested and how. It may not be how you use or intend to use a tuner, and it’s a very good book for other reasons.

I have 15 rifles that would say diffrent. more than 30 years ago, people would use a rubber doughnut. Then Browining came out with the BOSS. Once the pattent expired, all the other tuners came out. They worked great! At least on my rifles.