Bore Solvent/ Carbon Removal/ Borescope "proof"

[ptf18]

Fellows: I fully realize that the topic of bore carbon removal has been beaten to death over the years. What I'm asking is to the point.

What solvent will remove bore carbon that has been shown to do so based on the use of of a BORESCOPE?

ptf18

 

[LRPV]

No solvent will completely remove hard carbon. C4 from Boretech has done a better job than anything else for me under scrutiny with a borescope.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

No solvent alone takes care of hard carbon. You will need to brush it out (in my borescope, tight bronze brushes appear to be most effective).

BoreTech C4 is effective in pulling out powder fouling, and loosening hard carbon. That said, you'll still need to brush.

Edit: Even with C4 and brushing, you'll probably still want to use JB or Iosso every once in a while.

If you have any muzzle brakes you can pour your favorite solvent on it and rub a patch on it with your hand. You'll notice it likely didn't remove much carbon beyond just coloring the patch. Now try the same with brushing...this will give you an idea as to whats going on inside your bore.

 

[Jeff A]

If you follow the instructions, BoreTech C4 will do a good job. If you have not removed carbon before, it may take one or two firing intervals and cleaning applications. I first clean with Eliminator, then with C4. Use it every cleaning and you will be pleased. I shoot Long Range Benchrest and a typical match uses 75 rounds in quick succession. Sometimes, say every 4th or 5th cleaning, I need to follow up with Iosso. I use a Hawkeye Borescope with every cleaning to verify the conditions.

 

[T-shooter]

I had good luck with the ThorroClean system.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/thorroclean-bore-cleaning-system.3949315/

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Every aspect of cleaning has been beaten to death. Borescope or not. A simple Google search will bring up thousands of threads and topics. I birescope my rifles to be sure from time to time. Rem 40x and ProShot copper solvent work well.

 

[ptf18]

Thanks fellows.

 

[billlarson]

I use GM TOP ENGINE CLEANER.... let it soak over nite...inspect with Hawkeye b.s.
Bill

 

[BoydAllen]

Generally, there would be a lot more clarity in these discussions if posters understood that what many refer to as carbon is powder fouling, and that hard carbon is powder fouling is powder fouling that has been transformed by heat and pressure into something that as far as I know no brush patch solvent combination will remove. It requires something like IOSSO or JB Bore Cleaner. Question for the OP, are you asking about powder fouling or hard carbon?

 

[ShootDots]

Generally, there would be a lot more clarity in these discussions if posters understood that what many refer to as carbon is powder fouling, and that hard carbon is powder fouling is powder fouling that has been transformed by heat and pressure into something that as far as I know no brush patch solvent combination will remove. It requires something like IOSSO or JB Bore Cleaner. Question for the OP, are you asking about powder fouling or hard carbon?

^^^^^ Boyd is exactly correct! There is a HUGE difference between "powder fouling" and "hard carbon". I call powder fouling "Loose carbon" (since it is all carbon) and I call hard carbon >> exactly what it is, hard carbon.. The ONLY way I know to get hard carbon out is with a very stiff nylon brush, like the blue Iosso or the Montana Extreme brushes. Wrap a patch around one that is coated with JB and pass it thru the bore! Scrubbing in this fashion will get the HARD CARBON out>>>>IF it is not too firecracked up! Boyd, is correct, we need to know what we are actually referring to and how to clean what we are actually referring to.. Better semantics can only help!

 

[D-4297]

I was developing a carbon ring in the neck area , and followed the advice given on the site by knowledgeable people regarding this issue . Though I don't believe in brass / bronze brushes , I did use one in the neck area , on a short cleaning rod in a low speed drill , with Eliminator , and C4 . It took several cleaning cycles thru several shooting cycles , to finally remove the "ring" to just a shadow . My OCD took over , and I wanted that shadow , stain gone . Put some "Never Dull" wadding in the split rod and polished for a couple minutes . Eureka ! No more shadow . I think the Never Dull wadding may be useful in the bore also , as it doesn't remove metal . Only dirt , carbon fouling . And it doesn't show to be harmful . Might be worth trying .

 

[ptf18]

Fellows. It didn't dawn on me to mention "hard" carbon is what I was inquiring about removing.

Thanks.

 

[Bojo]

Is there a way to seal the chamber and fill the bore with a cleaner / liquid that would soak to loosen the carbon ?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

^^^^^ Boyd is exactly correct! There is a HUGE difference between "powder fouling" and "hard carbon". I call powder fouling "Loose carbon" (since it is all carbon) and I call hard carbon >> exactly what it is, hard carbon.. The ONLY way I know to get hard carbon out is with a very stiff nylon brush, like the blue Iosso or the Montana Extreme brushes. Wrap a patch around one that is coated with JB and pass it thru the bore! Scrubbing in this fashion will get the HARD CARBON out>>>>IF it is not too firecracked up! Boyd, is correct, we need to know what we are actually referring to and how to clean what we are actually referring to.. Better semantics can only help!

I tried JB bore paste for the first time recently and it does work well. Rem 40X cleaner on a stiff nylon brush (sometimes one bore size larger nylon brush helps too) will also remove hard carbon deposits.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Is there a way to seal the chamber and fill the bore with a cleaner / liquid that would soak to loosen the carbon ?

Wipe Out foam is designed to work that way and helps brake up carbon and copper deposits. Best to run a few patches with solvent to clear powder fouling, apply Wipe Out, let it sit for a few hours, then scrub with nylon brush and run a few more patches before dry patching. I dont use Wipe Out in my custom barrels as they dont develop enough carbon and copper deposits to warrant the need for a "soaking session" in solvent, but Wipe Out really helps me with the couple factory barrels I still have that dont have that nicely lapped finish.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Is there a way to seal the chamber and fill the bore with a cleaner / liquid that would soak to loosen the carbon ?

Possum Hollow makes O-Ring type chamber plugs that can be inserted in the chamber and will keep liquid from leaking by. - But that doesn't guarantee that all the hard carbon will be loosened & facilitate easy removal.
Mechanical action of brushing (using good quality bronze brushes) and use of carbon removing solvent(s) along with use of JB or ISSO paste are the most effective way to keep hard carbon at bay.

- I also clean often & at the range, usually 20-25 shots is the most I normally run (at the range) & then I'm cleaning. I feel this helps in keeping the hard carbon from building up. - I also use a bore-scope and do a close inspection when I do a very thorough cleaning at home.

 

[jpx2rk]

Would a definition of hard carbon be the left over powder fouling that has been baked or heated during the firing cycles? Anything that a wet patch and normal brushing routine does not remove??

 

[AckleymanII]

Often, guys will let their bores get carbon baked from stem to stern.

When this happens, regular JB on a good bronze bristle brush will not remove the carbon.

I found this year that by corking the muzzle, filling the bore with a penetrating oil that is called

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Soaking bore for two weeks, then 20 strokes with a brush, repeat up to two more two week sessions will get the caked on carbon out to bare metal with no abrasives.

I tried other penetrating oils also:

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I hope you don't wait till you need to ever have to "soak" your barrels for up to six weeks.

I use a hawkeye bore scope to inspect the bores, and they will come out bright and shinny soaking with the penetrating oil, then normal brushing with no abrasives. The Free All is worth it's weight in GOLD! If you ever have to try and bust loose rusted on bolts, you will learn the value of this product in spades, which is where I came up with all the other products.

 

[BoydAllen]

For rifles that need to be cleaned fairly often, including at matches, long soaking is not an option.

I would not use a particulate cleaner with a bronze brush or for that matter a stiff nylon brush.

I learned to use IOSSO back in the day from published accounts of how Tony Boyer did it between every match , probably because the T powder that was using back then while very good in most respects, was bad about making hard carbon. (This it how the manufacturer suggests using their product, and I am sure that their way works just fine.)

Back then there were not stiff nylon bore brushes and the ones that were available were quite a bit softer. Dewey sells brushes that work for me for this application. They can be reversed in the bore pretty easily.

After my full normal cleaning, including brushing, I put on a nylon brush and fill it to the ends of the bristles for its entire length with IOSSO, and using a bore guide that has a separate bushing on the rod that plugs into the back of the guide, I work carefully being particularly careful to keep the rod straight and in line withe the bore throughout its entire stroke. I work over the throat with about 20 very short strokes, about 3" and then continue that stroking as I slowly move the rod farther into the bore with the same short strokes, to the point that I am half way down its length. Then I pull back and do it one more time from the beginning, and remove it and clean the bore, chamber, lug recesses, rod guide, bushing, and rod as many times as required to remove all of the IOSSO.

I find that a very light oil works better for this than a solvent. Then I finish with a couple of wet patches of my regular solvent, dry the bore and chamber, and lube the lugs and cocking cam.

Different powders will build carbon at different rates, as will different case volume to bore size ratios. The trick it to only do this as often as it takes to maintain accuracy, without overdoing it. More is not better.

This is where a bore scope can really come in handy. You can clean a bit, clean out the IOSSO and take a look. Once you know how much to clean during a session, and how often you need to with that powder and caliber, you will be all set.

The extreme other end of things is VV133. In my 6PPC I have been able to keep my barres clean with cotton patches, regular solvent, and bronze brushes without accumulating hard carbon. No IOSSO or JB is required.

A friend of mine who shoots LT32 in his 6PPC match rifle has settled on using IOSSO every hundred rounds or so, carefully. He has a bore scope. He is on his second barrel and has experienced no problems as far as throat wear or barrel life. The first time that he used the IOSSO, at my suggestion, he saw a small increase in accuracy, probably because he was well beyond his first hundred rounds with LT32 on that barrel.

LT32 is a fine powder, and having to do this every so often should not be taken as a criticism, nor should it deter anyone from its use. For less critical applications the frequency of these sorts of cleanings could undoubtedly be extended.

 

[BenPerfected]

For rifles that need to be cleaned fairly often, including at matches, long soaking is not an option. I would not use a particulate cleaner with a bronze brush or for that matter a stiff nylon brush. I learned to use IOSSO back in the day from published accounts of how Tony Boyer did it between every match , probably because the T powder that was using back then while very good in most respects, was bad about making hard carbon. (This it how the manufacturer suggests using their product, and I am sure that their way works just fine.) Back then there were not stiff nylon bore brushes and the ones that were available were quite a bit softer. Dewey sells brushes that work for me for this application. They can be reversed in the bore pretty easily. After my full normal cleaning, including brushing, I put on a nylon brush and fill it to the ends of the bristles for its entire length with IOSSO, and using a bore guide that has a separate bushing on the rod that plugs into the back of the guide, I work carefully being particularly careful to keep the rod straight and in line withe the bore throughout its entire stroke. I work over the throat with about 20 very short strokes, about 3" and then continue that stroking as I slowly move the rod farther into the bore with the same short strokes, to the point that I am half way down its length. Then I pull back and do it one more time from the beginning, and remove it and clean the bore, chamber, lug recesses, rod guide, bushing, and rod as many times as required to remove all of the IOSSO. I find that a very light oil works better for this than a solvent. Then I finish with a couple of wet patches of my regular solvent, dry the bore and chamber, and lube the lugs and cocking cam. Different powders will build carbon at different rates, as will different case volume to bore size ratios. The trick it to only do this as often as it takes to maintain accuracy, without overdoing it. More is not better. This is where a bore scope can really come in handy. You can clean a bit, clean out the IOSSO and take a look. Once you know how much to clean during a session, and how often you need to with that powder and caliber, you will be all set. The extreme other end of things is VV133. In my 6PPC I have been able to keep my barres clean with cotton patches, regular solvent, and bronze brushes without accumulating hard carbon. No IOSSO or JB is required. A friend of mine who shoots LT32 in his 6PPC match rifle has settled on using IOSSO every hundred rounds or so, carefully. He has a bore scope. He is on his second barrel and has experienced no problems as far as throat wear or barrel life. The first time that he used the IOSSO, at my suggestion, he saw a small increase in accuracy, probably because he was well beyond his first hundred rounds with LT32 on that barrel. LT32 is a fine powder, and having to do this every so often should not be taken as a criticism, nor should it deter anyone from its use. For less critical applications the frequency of these sorts of cleanings could undoubtedly be extended.

Boyd, love your experience...can you condense this some?
Ben