best die LOCKING ring

[Uncle Ed]

Below is more of a question seeking opinions than a statement.

In the Speer #9 reloading manual there is a chapter entitled "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques" by Neal Knox. This is 1974 dated "modern" techniques.

The author states with the lock ring loose and the die adjusted to the correct height then lube a case and run it into the die. He states this will center the die in the press threads and the shell holder or a shimming washer will help square the die.

The authors point above is you can lock the die down off center and tilted in the coarse 7/8x14 threads.

The Co-Ax press allows the die to float and the jaws allow the case to float in the press. And I assume nothing pushes upward on the die to square it.

Whidden dies are shorter and never touch the shell holder.

Question, if the die never touches the shell holder what squares the die with Whidden dies or in the Co-Ax press or standard dies raised above the shell holder. And does this have any effect on shoulder uniformity when sizing.

I'm asking because I prefer Lee lock rings with their o-ring and using Redding competition shell holder making hard contact with the die. To me the Lee lock ring allows the die to float and helps center the die and the Redding competition shell holder squares the die.

In this forum and in other forums and authors like Glen Zediker they say they prefer that the die never touches the shell holder.

This posting is about the "best" die lock rings but how do all of you make sure the die is centered in the press and not tilted after tightening the dies lock ring. And does shell holder contact with the die improve concentricity and case shoulder uniformity.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Whatever you use, put one of these labels on it. .002" die height change per mark. Makes die adjustments for shoulder bump easy and precise.
View attachment 1084934

Bart B.

In the photo you posted I can see that slip joint pliers were used to grab the lock ring and chew up its surface.
(Go Navy)

You need the pliers below we were issued in the Air Force. That way your lock rings will not look like a herd of beavers were chewing on them. Aim High Air Force

Crescent 52910N A-N Connector Pliers, 10-Inch (with "soft" rubber jaws)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00170RES8/?tag=accuratescom-20

The above message was brought to you by the "Society for the prevention of cruelty to lock rings"

 

[Bart B.]

Bart B.

In the photo you posted I can see that slip joint pliers were used to grab the lock ring and chew up its surface.
(Go Navy)

You need the pliers below we were issued in the Air Force. That way your lock rings will not look like a herd of beavers were chewing on them. Aim High Air Force

Crescent 52910N A-N Connector Pliers, 10-Inch (with "soft" rubber jaws)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00170RES8/?tag=accuratescom-20

The above message was brought to you by the "Society for the prevention of cruelty to lock rings"

Another remark from someone ignorant of what the lock ring to press mating surfaces look and fit like that cannot be seen. If you were Superman, you could see through the ring to their mating surfaces that count, not the tool's teeth marks on the ring's unimportant gripping edges. Instead, you chose to reveal your short comings comprehending what's important in mechanical fit for good alignment and functionality. Besides, several dozen grip points are better than 6 on a hex nut.

Use a giant pair to twist your head into thinking about what's important. Some ex USAF folks can do that. I think you can, too.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I like to use my hands on a lock ring. Ive never needed pliers or a wrench. And believe it or not most of the top benchrest competitors purposely put slack in their press’s ram and let the die do the work. You dont want a press influencing the case in any way that includes the die touching the shellholder (which will never be square). The ONLY thing a press should do is push the case in and pull it out.

 

[JFrank]

I think the OP moved on about three pages ago

 

[Uncle Ed]

I like to use my hands on a lock ring. Ive never needed pliers or a wrench. And believe it or not most of the top benchrest competitors purposely put slack in their press’s ram and let the die do the work. You dont want a press influencing the case in any way that includes the die touching the shellholder (which will never be square). The ONLY thing a press should do is push the case in and pull it out.

Who is right, the dies instructions that tell you to screw the die down until it contacts the shell holder and the 1/8 to a 1/4 turn more. Or Redding making competition shell holders that contact the shell holder also, vs people telling you the die should not touch the shell holder

Have runout test been done on the base of the dies to see if they are square.

What I'm getting at is all the conflicting information you get starting from the dies instructions to advice given in forums.

RCBS press and dies tell you to make hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over and a Co-ax press has a floating die and floating case jaws that do not touch the base of the die. (I think because I do not have a Co-Ax press)

The various thickness shimming washers you put under the dies lock ring raises the die off the shell holder. But Redding makes competition shell holders that do contact the shell holder.

Notice below Redding states you are not squaring the die if the die does not contact the shell holder.

The advice given in forums is like watching the old TV show "Who do you trust".

 

[savagedasher]

My dies touch the float shell holder that is what it has to do with a coax
None of my dies are short enough not to
As far as the dies being straight on the bottom Doesn’t matter when one part of the die. Touch no press will push the die any closer

 

[JFrank]

You trust yourself and not worry about what someone else does.

 

[Uncle Ed]

My dies touch the float shell holder that is what it has to do with a coax
None of my dies are short enough not to
As far as the dies being straight on the bottom Doesn’t matter when one part of the die. Touch no press will push the die any closer

Why do they then sell a attachment to use a standard shell holder like a RCBS shell holder. Is the difference light contact and hard contact.

Again I have a RCBS Rockchucker press and set the dies up per the RCBS dies instructions with hard contact and press cam over. I then use the Redding competition shell holder to adjust the amount of shoulder bump and never touch the die.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Another remark from someone ignorant of what the lock ring to press mating surfaces look and fit like that cannot be seen. If you were Superman, you could see through the ring to their mating surfaces that count, not the tool's teeth marks on the ring's unimportant gripping edges. Instead, you chose to reveal your short comings comprehending what's important in mechanical fit for good alignment and functionality. Besides, several dozen grip points are better than 6 on a hex nut.

Use a giant pair to twist your head into thinking about what's important. Some ex USAF folks can do that. I think you can, too.

Have you tried wrapping the dies lock ring with some cloth from a pair of Duluth Fire Hose Pants to protect the lock ring from your slip joint pliers.

Sorry about the Beaver cutting you off below the knees.

Aim High Air Force.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Who is right, the dies instructions that tell you to screw the die down until it contacts the shell holder and the 1/8 to a 1/4 turn more. Or Redding making competition shell holders that contact the shell holder also, vs people telling you the die should not touch the shell holder

Have runout test been done on the base of the dies to see if they are square.

What I'm getting at is all the conflicting information you get starting from the dies instructions to advice given in forums.

RCBS press and dies tell you to make hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over and a Co-ax press has a floating die and floating case jaws that do not touch the base of the die. (I think because I do not have a Co-Ax press)

The various thickness shimming washers you put under the dies lock ring raises the die off the shell holder. But Redding makes competition shell holders that do contact the shell holder.

Notice below Redding states you are not squaring the die if the die does not contact the shell holder.

The advice given in forums is like watching the old TV show "Who do you trust".

Redding and other’s instructions are for novices that it doesnt matter to if they push their shoulders back .015 or .030 as long as it goes off in their guns. No accuracy minded shooter that i know of just blindly screws their dies down to the shellholder and starts loading. Custom dies are shorter for a reason. That reason is so that the press or shellholder does not influence the case going into the die such that it will if you touch the shellholder. You have to remember the audience they have with die instructions. There has to be a fail safe built in so that the average reloader doesnt push their shoulder back .100

 

[savagedasher]

Why do they then sell a attachment to use a standard shell holder like a RCBS shell holder. Is the difference light contact and hard contact.

Again I have a RCBS Rockchucker press and set the dies up per the RCBS dies instructions with hard contact and press cam over. I then use the Redding competition shell holder to adjust the amount of shoulder bump and never touch the die.

Cam over is where the maximum pressure is applied
You adjust the cam over and the hard contact is all the same The reason some use the Redding shell holder is because the die is too long to push the case shoulder back enough
Shorten the die

 

[Bart B.]

Have you tried wrapping the dies lock ring with some cloth from a pair of Duluth Fire Hose Pants to protect the lock ring from your slip joint pliers.

Sorry about the Beaver cutting you off below the knees.

I care about my lock rings looks as much as I care about your remarks about anything regarding me.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I care about my lock rings looks as much as I care about your remarks about anything regarding me.

Dear Bart B.

Look at the bright side and the information give to the readers of this posting.

Below are the pliers I have had and used since 1974 to use on my dies round lock rings. The hard rubber inserts have been replace several times and angry beavers or slip joint pliers have never marred any of my lock rings. You can also see my favorite type die a Forster full length benchrest die.

I guess they never showed you any Primitive Pete films in the Navy about hammer and chisel shade tree mechanics.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Cam over is where the maximum pressure is applied
You adjust the cam over and the hard contact is all the same The reason some use the Redding shell holder is because the die is too long to push the case shoulder back enough
Shorten the die

The reason people use the Redding competition shell holders is because these shell holders do not push the case as far into the die as a standard shell holder for "less" shoulder bump.

The reason people lap the top of the shell holder is to push the case further into the die for more shoulder bump.

 

[Bart B.]

Look at the bright side and the information give to the readers of this posting.

I can hear them now applauding another internet forum bully cheering him on as he tries to hide his inadequacies and incompetence.

 

[savagedasher]

The reason people use the Redding competition shell holders is because these shell holders do not push the case as far into the die as a standard shell holder for "less" shoulder bump.

The reason people lap the top of the shell holder is to push the case further into the die for more shoulder bump.

 

[savagedasher]

The advertising says plus or minus
Dot use the so I assume what the advertisement say is s fact

 

[JFrank]

 

[Bart B.]

The reason people use the Redding competition shell holders is because these shell holders do not push the case as far into the die as a standard shell holder for "less" shoulder bump.

The reason people lap the top of the shell holder is to push the case further into the die for more shoulder bump.

Such is life when most die's headspace is about .005" less than a GO gauge.