Best 200yd cartridge - advice needed

[bichettereds]

Hi guys.

Im looking at getting a Savage model 12 with an F-Class stock and Shilen barrel.

I will mostly be shooting 100-200yds. Im not looking at competing, just with myself. Im already set up to load for .223 but was thinking of going with something different.

My question is, would .222 or 6BR have much advantage over .223 at 200yds? If so, what would you recommend.

Any advice on chamber dimensions, twist rate, bullets, barrel length, ect would also be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[johnfred1965]

I don't have experience with either one, but I'll give you my opinion, since everyone has one.
The 222 was the darling of benchrest for decades, only to be supplanted by the 6ppc. If you are shooting the 223, you already have a quite accurate round, and the 222, while a bit more accurate, will only be duplication.
The 6ppc is top of the food chain, but there are a lot of nuances to loading and shooting it well. However, because of its dominance, there are many high class 6mm bullets.
Which brings us to the 6BR. Probably second only to the 6ppc, brass can come almost ready to shoot, and you can still use the great 6mm bullets. You can take it and shoot it, or you can concentrate on extracting every .001 of accuracy available.
Like, I said, just my opinion, But one is in my future some day. As for the details, there are many shooters here that will give you all the information you need and more to get you shooting bugholes. Good luck.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

My question is, would .222 or 6BR have much advantage over .223 at 200yds? If so, what would you recommend.

If you're just shooting informally, and are already set up to load for .223, use the money that you would spend on new dies to buy some wind flags. Nothing will shrink your groups faster than learning what wind does to a bullet. If you have money left over, buy Tony Boyer's "Book of Rifle Accuracy."

 

[bichettereds]

I guess my question is, with all things being equal (Savage 12 LRP action, Shilen barrel), how much improvement should I expect to see at 200yds going from 223 to 6BR?

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I guess my question is, with all things being equal (Savage 12 LRP action, Shilen barrel), how much improvement should I expect to see at 200yds going from 223 to 6BR?

Post some of your current targets and tell us more about your loading and load development practices, components, rest/bags, and optics. We need to know how close to the potential of a .223 you are shooting now.

The difference in absolute precision between a .223 and 6BR at 100-200 yards might matter to a competitive shooter (though no winning BR shooters are using either of these cartridges at 100-200 yards) where a few thousandths of an inch in group size can make the difference between first place and tenth, but that doesn't sound like you.

 

[CJ6]

If you want the BEST 100-200 yd cartridge get a 6 PPC in a platform that will support it's accuracy potential.

 

[bichettereds]

Post some of your current targets and tell us more about your loading and load development practices, components, rest/bags, and optics. We need to know how close to the potential of a .223 you are shooting now.

The difference in absolute precision between a .223 and 6BR at 100-200 yards might matter to a competitive shooter (though no winning BR shooters are using either of these cartridges at 100-200 yards) where a few thousandths of an inch in group size can make the difference between first place and tenth, but that doesn't sound like you.

With my CZ527 Varmint which was a 1:9 twist, the best I was able to do with it was about .5-.6" 3-shot groups and .75-.8" 5-shot groups. That is averages, not cherry picking my best. I know that there is more potential with that caliber. I sold that rifle to a friend and he noticed an issue with the crown, that possibly could've been hindering it's grouping potential. I've been able to do about the same with my White Oak barreled AR15.

That was using 60gr FBHP Sierras and 69gr SMKs, usually under H335 or Varget, respectively.

My bench setup is a Caldwell Rock BR front rest with protektor front and rear bags. Scope was a 20x Nitrex TR1, and recently a Sightron SIII 10-50x60.... which will be what I put on the Savage I get next.

I used Lapua brass, FL sized and trimmed before firing forming, then neck sized only until the shoulder needed pushed back. Lee collet neck sizer. Seated the bullets to about a .015" jump with the 69gr SMKs, which required the use of a single shot adapter. I used a Wilson seater die with a K&M arbor press, which I could also measure neck tension while seating the bullets. I sometimes would sort by bullet weight but rarely noticed a difference.

As far as load development, I never really played around with the seating depth much, but I did do a ladder test at 200yds and found that with the 69gr SMK and Varget, it liked just about a full compressed load the best, which I believe was around 26grs or just under?

I know that I still have a lot to learn and may not see the benefits of a 6BR compared to the .223, yet. But Im thinking that if a 6BR is in my future, why wait?

 

[bichettereds]

If you want the BEST 100-200 yd cartridge get a 6 PPC in a platform that will support it's accuracy potential.

Im probably not going to go full custom benchrest. Gonna stick with the Savage Target action and Shilen barrel... and the 6BR seems to require less case prep.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

With my CZ527 Varmint which was a 1:9 twist, the best I was able to do with it was about .5-.6" 3-shot groups and .75-.8" 5-shot groups. That is averages, not cherry picking my best.

Nothing wrong with that.

I know that I still have a lot to learn and may not see the benefits of a 6BR compared to the .223, yet. But Im thinking that if a 6BR is in my future, why wait?

Get a 6BR if you want one. It's likely that a 6BR with a custom barrel will outshoot your factory .223, but that's not because the 6BR is really much better -- a .223 with a custom barrel probably will shoot great, too.

For about the same money as a Savage with a Shilen barrel you can buy a used 6PPC with a custom action and a stock that is designed to shoot off a rest/bag. 6PPC brass prep is no big deal, and can be outsourced if desired (Ron Hoehn).

http://theshooterscorner.com/benchrest-rifles/

Here's a 100-yard 5-shot group that I shot with my first 6PPC, bought used for $1000. A .308 bullet won't fit through the hole made by 5 shots.

 

[bichettereds]

That is just awesome!

It looks like buying fully prepped PPC brass from Ron doubles the cost of new lapua BR brass. I'd like to avoid having to turn necks if I can.

The reason the Savage appeals to me more than buying a used custom rifle already set up for benchrest, is that I dont need to pay a gunsmith to replace the barrel, which will be sooner with a used rifle than a new Savage. As far as the stock goes... I would by the F-Class stock which looks like it has a nice 3" flat forend and flat bottom buttstock so it should ride in a bag nicely.

 

[CJ6]

That is just awesome!

It looks like buying fully prepped PPC brass from Ron doubles the cost of new lapua BR brass. I'd like to avoid having to turn necks if I can.

Yes it does....BUT the 220 Russian brass with last 2x as long (if not longer) and @ higher pressures with chamber/dies/brass matched using less powder.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

That is just awesome!

Well, here's a 5-shot group from my second 6PPC (smithed by Jim Borden) -- this time at 300 yards. "The first 4 were in a bughole."

The reason the Savage appeals to me more than buying a used custom rifle already set up for benchrest, is that I dont need to pay a gunsmith to replace the barrel, which will be sooner with a used rifle than a new Savage.

Buy a used 6PPC on a Panda (like the one I used to shoot the above target) and Kelbly's will chamber a barrel for you by just sending them the serial number on the action. Changing a barrel on a custom-actioned BR rifle is easier and faster than changing one on a Savage with a barrel nut -- no headspace gauge required.

 

[hogpatrol]

Another good spot to look for BR rifles.

http://benchrest.com/class/

 

[MarkS]

Hi guys.

Im looking at getting a Savage model 12 with an F-Class stock and Shilen barrel.

I will mostly be shooting 100-200yds. Im not looking at competing, just with myself. Im already set up to load for .223 but was thinking of going with something different.

My question is, would .222 or 6BR have much advantage over .223 at 200yds? If so, what would you recommend.

Any advice on chamber dimensions, twist rate, bullets, barrel length, ect would also be appreciated.

Thanks!

I started with a 223 Savage LRPV, it shot very well. I put a 223AI 8 tw CBI barrel on it a few years back. The 223AI would out shoot the 223 ( Custom barrel I just ). I put a CBI 6BR barrel on it last year, and it out shoot both. The 6BR is the most accurate from 100 to 1000yds. Go with a 8 twist, shoot 80 gr or 90gr. Berger's for close range. The 90 gr. BT Berger is a very over looked bullet, it is very accurate bullet for close to long range. You want go wrong with a 6BR. The 8 twist barrel will shot bullets 68 gr. to 105 gr.

Mark Schronce

 

[R.Morehouse]

I would suggest the 6ppc. Once i got mine in trade for a nice 243ai and starting to look into how the 100-200lv br game was played with throwing charges at the range to all the different quality bullet makers ect. It really is quite a different animal than my 17lb 1000yd br shooting. I am set up with a 10.5 LV gun and all the proper equip. to support the LV-HV BR comp. I will never be the guy that can get to the matches days early and choose from many barrels on any given day. But man i'll tell you one thing, my set-up can shoot and tune and is making me much better at loading and shooting on the bench. I think all aspects of LV BR shooting is an absolute HOOT and wish i had gotten into it much,much sooner.....I think it is a fine choice for anybody and will surely drive you crazy enough to keep from getting bored.....

 

[Liven The Dream]

I would say for 200 your .223 stuff would be good.
If I was going to spend more on dies ,brass etc. 6BR .
I have had most of what is talked about in the above.
I am now a Prone Shooter Mid to Long Range ! Most of my Game is Palma and Full Bore. (iron sights)
.308 and .223 are the Rule as what you can use.
.308 with a 1-13 or 1-12 30" barrel is in the Winners Circle 99% of the time.
.223 is giving a Great Show as of late. There are a couple of Lad's in California with .223
that are doing a lot of Winning out to 1000 yards.
choose well and spend your money once

 

[bichettereds]

So if I decide to go to 6BR... What chamber, twist, bullet weight would you recommend for 200yds? Would a 1:8 twist with heavier bullets do just as good at 200yds as a slower twist, lighter bullet? I may have the opportunity to shoot at 600-1000yds but that would be rare (once or twice a year).

 

[CJ6]

So if I decide to go to 6BR... What chamber, twist, bullet weight would you recommend for 200yds? Would a 1:8 twist with heavier bullets do just as good at 200yds as a slower twist, lighter bullet? I may have the opportunity to shoot at 600-1000yds but that would be rare (once or twice a year).

Now you're going to make comprimises.

 

[Rich S]

That is just awesome!

It looks like buying fully prepped PPC brass from Ron doubles the cost of new lapua BR brass. I'd like to avoid having to turn necks if I can.

The reason the Savage appeals to me more than buying a used custom rifle already set up for benchrest, is that I dont need to pay a gunsmith to replace the barrel, which will be sooner with a used rifle than a new Savage. As far as the stock goes... I would by the F-Class stock which looks like it has a nice 3" flat forend and flat bottom buttstock so it should ride in a bag nicely.

The Savage F-class stock is not set up proper ly in my opinion. I built the same gun a couple of years ago. Savage target action, Shilen 6BR barrel, recoil lug and nut from NSS, Sav 2 trigger and Savage F class stock from NSS. I've been very happy with it and have been able to shoot respectably at 600. I did however have to modify the stock. The width of the butt is tapered and does not ride the bags very well. I've modified a couple of them now and both tracked noticeably better. Unless you have a mill to modify it I'd look at other stocks. I know a couple guys that have the Savage BR stock and they seem to shoot well.

 

[bichettereds]

The Savage F-class stock is not set up proper ly in my opinion. I built the same gun a couple of years ago. Savage target action, Shilen 6BR barrel, recoil lug and nut from NSS, Sav 2 trigger and Savage F class stock from NSS. I've been very happy with it and have been able to shoot respectably at 600. I did however have to modify the stock. The width of the butt is tapered and does not ride the bags very well. I've modified a couple of them now and both tracked noticeably better. Unless you have a mill to modify it I'd look at other stocks. I know a couple guys that have the Savage BR stock and they seem to shoot well.

Thanks for that advice. Does anyone sell the BR stock by itself? Any other aftermarket stocks you recommend for $350-400 that would be suitable for benchrest shooting?