Are more expensive dies more concentric...

[Keone]

Hi Guys,
I've been reloading now for about 2 years and instantly I became consumed with making a better round... Or should I say a more consistent round. While Im not there yet, I seem to be drawn to the bench rest realm of things...

Recently I felt ready to start diving into more advance techniques and looking for methods to minimize differences in each round I create. One of the first "advance" methods I started to explore was Neck Turning. Because of this I felt like I needed to replace the Lee Dies I started out with and purchased a set of RCBS bushing style resizing dies. After using the bushing die for a while I found out I could get an "undersized" mandrel for the Lee die and bought one..

I also purchase a Neco Concentricity Gauge and while Im not completely convinced this is the best "affordable" tool to measure TIR, it consistantely reports that the cases resized with the Lee die is straighter then the bushing die that cost a lot more.

Am I missing something ??

If not, can someone explain to me why/or when one should use a bushing die... I gonna go out on a limb and conclude that assuming I turned the necks down to the same thickness. Neck tension uniformity would not be a problem with the Lee die???

Thanks for Learning Me Something....
K

 

[waldo1979]

I think that might say more about the RCBS for then it does about the Lee die. Lee gets a bad name often because it's an inexpensive brand but he has some great design ideas. Like any tool there may be some small tweaks necessary to get optimal performance.

Last year the Army shooting team posted a video showing how non-micrometer dies produce less run out. So it wouldn't surprise me that the product advertising more accuracy produces less concentric rounds.

Questions:
- Are you checking concentricity on loaded rounds or the cases by themselves?
- How much run out are you seeing on loaded rounds?
- Are you using the expander ball with the bushing dies?
- Are you using the same seating die when testing?

The purpose of the bushing die is to adjust the neck tension. Neck tension may affect group sizes for people trying to squeeze that extra 0.050", but in the big picture the stock tension is probably fine for most calibers and rifles.

 

[ireload2]

You can make a standard rifle shoot better on the path you have taken.
However if you want to skip a lot of the newbie stuff try a quality barrel with a benchrest quality chamber.
You can spin your wheels shooting 1/2" to 5/8" groups forever when a benchrest rifle will cut those groups in half with ordinary care.
One thing the BR rifle often does is take away your alibis for not reading the conditions. The shooter's skill is the hardest part to perfect. My biggest day of discovery was a bluebird day with about a 5 mph on and off breeze. i could not read the calm that well. I had a very tall skinny weed with the seed head blocking my target when the air was calm. I watched the seed head to see how far it was moving and picked the limit of the breeze on the back stop. When that weed was 3" left of my target I fired. When I got through with 5 shots I had a group fired with a 6X47 that could be covered with a .30 cal bullet. My ammo was assembled with run of the mill hand dies. The neck sizer was an ancient Neil Jones bushing die that I paid $15 for at a gun show. The seater was an ordinary Wilson hand die that you use with a small arbor press. For that rifle my entire suite of exotic handloading tools was worth about $35.
This was with a stock Remington 40XBR with a factory 700 trigger modified to a 3 lever design. All of this was cast off late 1970s to early 1980s benchrest equipment.
The stock 40XBR barrel has a normal size chamber neck so I didn't do much turning on the necks. The bullets were something that I do not even remember.
Make sure you have the best rest and bags you can afford. They will magically improve the accuracy of all of your rifles without changing anything else. A really good scope helps too.

Hi Guys,


Am I missing something ??

Thanks for Learning Me Something....
K

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Rcbs is not known to be br quality. One thing thatll create runout is not letting the bushing float- shake the die and if that bushing doesnt rattle loosen it up. Also dont use the expander ball in the die. Best thing to do is call whidden and order a set of fl bushing dies and just be done with it. The neco gage works fine just play around with your dies and press and find the issue. Do a search on here on runout and youll find some tricks. Another thing is if you are not turning your necks with good tools you cant make it not runout.

 

[Keone]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the replies.. Maybe I overused the phrase "BenchRest".. I of course don't expect BenchRest results with the equipment I currently have, but I do expect to be able to make consistent ammo regardless of the limits of my equipment. For the most part I can understand most of my equipments limitations... i.e.. my single stage press is probably capable of straighter resizing then my progressive... Just less moving parts to align...
But the differences with the bushing vs the collet die kinda surprised me. Thinking about it, I guess it shouldn't have.. The collet design seems like it would naturally keep things in better alignment. In fact I'm surprised there aren't more collet type dies in production. Seem like it would be easy to offer custom size mandrels the same as bushings.
I should have included these details in the original post, maybe there is a flaw in my process...

Brass was factory loaded Lapua 167gr .308 (20 rds) that I fired out of my SSG3000. (NF competition, Joypod, edgewood rear bag, prone)
Dry tumbled > length checked > then FL resized (bushing with expander) > then turned with Sinclair handheld cutter w/drill case holder attachment. > FL resized w/o expander > measured with Neco. After scratching my head for a while I decided to run one case in my Lee Neck collet die. This reduced the neck TIR of every case.

Questions, Comments, and just plain Wise Crack remarks are all welcome...

thanks
K

 

[waldo1979]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the replies.. Maybe I overused the phrase "BenchRest".. I of course don't expect BenchRest results with the equipment I currently have, but I do expect to be able to make consistent ammo regardless of the limits of my equipment. For the most part I can understand most of my equipments limitations... i.e.. my single stage press is probably capable of straighter resizing then my progressive... Just less moving parts to align...
But the differences with the bushing vs the collet die kinda surprised me. Thinking about it, I guess it shouldn't have.. The collet design seems like it would naturally keep things in better alignment. In fact I'm surprised there aren't more collet type dies in production. Seem like it would be easy to offer custom size mandrels the same as bushings.
I should have included these details in the original post, maybe there is a flaw in my process...

Brass was factory loaded Lapua 167gr .308 (20 rds) that I fired out of my SSG3000. (NF competition, Joypod, edgewood rear bag, prone)
Dry tumbled > length checked > then FL resized (bushing with expander) > then turned with Sinclair handheld cutter w/drill case holder attachment. > FL resized w/o expander > measured with Neco. After scratching my head for a while I decided to run one case in my Lee Neck collet die. This reduced the neck TIR of every case.

Questions, Comments, and just plain Wise Crack remarks are all welcome...

thanks
K

Sounds like your Lee die just has a little less neck tension. Have you measured the difference in tension between the two dies?

 

[normmatzen]

I shoot Bench Rest and F Class. All my ammo is made with LEE collet neck sizing dies and in-line bullet seating dies from a couple sources. I do use an RCBS body die to size just the body of the case.
I don't think you can get better concentricity in sizing than from Lee Collet dies.

 

[Number6]

I have been doing a little research on YouTube concerning the same subject seem the Lee collet neck sizing dies do better than many of the other brands.

 

[Keone]

Sounds like your Lee die just has a little less neck tension. Have you measured the difference in tension between the two dies?

I feel kinda dumb now saying I felt ready for more advance techniques.... How would I compare tension between the dies??? just measure neck I.D ??

I shoot Bench Rest and F Class. All my ammo is made with LEE collet neck sizing dies and in-line bullet seating dies from a couple sources. I do use an RCBS body die to size just the body of the case.
I don't think you can get better concentricity in sizing than from Lee Collet dies.

Normmatzen, that RCBS die you use, what worked better for you with or without expander

edited... you said body so I guess that means without

I have been doing a little research on YouTube concerning the same subject seem the Lee collet neck sizing dies do better than many of the other brands.

Thanks Number6, Ill have to look that up.

K

 

[waldo1979]

Take an O.D. measurement after sizing and then after seating.

Seated O.D. - Sized O.D. = Neck Tension

 

[HTSmith]

Lee collet dies are hard to beat. I think some folks look down on them because they are inexpensive. Their loss imho.

 

[Boxcar77]

One thing to keep in mind with RCBS bushing dies, if your resizing over .005 from fired neck to resized neck OD, you might want to consider getting an intermediate bushing. Sizing over the .005 can cause case neck funneling and concentricity issues.

As for the Lee collet die it's an awesome piece for the price, making nice concentric necks.

 

[Barlow]

I have wondered why a die manufacturer would have any grade die but straight and concentric at whatever cost they are. I have sent back FL dies that were supposed to be the best, but were crooked, and have less costly dies that are true. I think dies are a crapshoot no matter who makes them. Barlow

 

[SS427]

One of the best die sets I ever had for minimal run out was a $25 set of RCBS .223 dies. Even with the expander ball it did awesome. Sold it because I thought the $200 set of Redding competition dies had to be better. I was wrong...they actually averaged a little more run out. I've since sold the competition dies and moved on to a Redding FL die and a Wilson seating die. $300 plus dollars later I'm back to about where I was regarding run out with the $25 dies.

I will say overall my RCBS dies have had the most average run out, followed by Redding/Wilson and then the single custom FL/Wilson die set I have. I agree with Barlow though, it is a crapshoot unless you go custom.

 

[Catfur]

To answer the original question.

On average, yes. But that's a substantially less useful answer than you were probably hoping for.

As noted, plenty of cheap dies will produce straighter ammo, plenty of more expensive dies will produce less straight ammo. And a statement about averages is not a dispositive statement about your particular instance.

If your stuff works, don't replace it. Only fiddle with it if it's not producing the result you want. Don't try and "improve" a parameter unless you can measure it to your satisfaction first.

 

[Keone]

Thanks for the comments... While I still feel compelled to try Whidden or Forster or something, I think you all saved me some money.

Thanks
K

 

[ratbuster]

Collet dies produce concentric ammo. I have heard Lee has a patent on it which would explain why they are the only mfr. that makes one. Lee conventional die sets also work very well despite the low prices.

 

[ireload2]

There were people shooting tiny groups back in the 1960s probably before Whidden was born.

Thanks for the comments... While I still feel compelled to try Whidden or Forster or something, I think you all saved me some money.

Thanks
K

 

[dkhunt14]

There were people shooting tiny groups back in the 1960s probably before Whidden was born.

Yes, but they were not shooting as small as now. Also I believe as a group everybody is shooting smaller. When I started 1000 yard BR in 2000, you had maybe 2 guns in a relay to beat. Now almost everybody has a chance. In the last 5 years, the competition has tightened up. The aggregates at the end of the year are way closer. Matt

 

[dmoran]

There were people shooting tiny groups back in the 1960s probably before Whidden was born.

Some 1000-BR history:

The first 1000-BR match recorded in history was in October, 1967 and a best group of 10-shots was recorded at 12.625" by Leonard Aunkst of Milton, PA.

By the end of 1968, the record stood at 8.5" and by 1970 it was down to 7.687".

By 1980 it was down to 5.039", and by 1990 it was down to 4.375".

In 1995, John Voneida of White Deer, PA set the record at 3.151".
The IBS-1000 also started in 1995 and so did 5-shot LT-Gun records.

In 2002, Bill Schraeder set a NBRSA-1000 record in LT at 1.473", and Richard DeSimone set the IBS record at 1.564", that were bettered by Tom Sarver's IBS-1000 record in fallowing years, and is the current 5-shot World record at 1.397" from 2007.

Matt Kline was the first person to break under 3" from 10-shots in 2010 with a 2.815", that was broken by Jim Richards with a 2.687" in March, 2014.

Donovan