Are more expensive dies more concentric...

[Shaggy357]

My philosophy has always been to remove as much variation as I could in my reloading process. Consistency is key. You have to have minimal variation in your brass, bullets, powder, powder measure, bullet seating, press, etc. Turning necks on brass will not make a lot of difference if shooting bulk bullets in a field gage chamber. You have to increase your consistency as you match the capability of the firearm. Volkswagen type gun may not shoot like a Cadillac even though you load Cadillac ammo for it. A Cadillac gun may not shoot like a Cadillac if you load Volkswagen ammo for it. Volkswagen type guns only need Volkswagen type ammo. Cadillac guns may shoot with Volkswagen ammo, but to get the real value, you need to work up some Cadillac ammo. Are you loading for a Volkswagen gun or a Cadillac gun? Match your ammo to the gun.....

Steve

 

[JRS]

Unless it was a Phaeton

 

[ireload2]

How many of those groups were shot only because of Whidden dies?
How many of those groups were shot because scopes, barrels, triggers and especially bullets are much better? The last time I checked the BR guys were still using Wilson tools.

Yes, but they were not shooting as small as now. Also I believe as a group everybody is shooting smaller. When I started 1000 yard BR in 2000, you had maybe 2 guns in a relay to beat. Now almost everybody has a chance. In the last 5 years, the competition has tightened up. The aggregates at the end of the year are way closer. Matt

 

[DennisH]

Take an O.D. measurement after sizing and then after seating.

Seated O.D. - Sized O.D. = Neck Tension

This procedure also works for me.

 

[Keone]

When I said Whidden or Forster... I just meant "higher priced" dies not necessarily better...


@dmoran thanks for sharing that history.. I can't wait to get into bench rest

 

[dkhunt14]

How many of those groups were shot only because of Whidden dies?
How many of those groups were shot because scopes, barrels, triggers and especially bullets are much better? The last time I checked the BR guys were still using Wilson tools.

I don't see that much difference in barrels or scopes in the last 5 years. I broke the records with a scope I bought in 2000 when I started. A Nightforce BR12x42.

The barrel was a few years old, maybe 2006 because I buy quite a few and stock them.

Jewell triggers have been around forever.

Bullets vary by lot and some lots need sorted and measured much better.

A lot of guys use Wilson to seat but it is their reamer ran in to make a perfect fit. The sizing dies are full length and usually custom. Mine is a WTC and one my buddy made on an Okuma.
Matt

The competition just has tightened in the last five or so years. I believe the main reason is because of forum's and our benchrest school and more guys learned how to reload better. Matt

 

[ireload2]

You broke what records in what sport?
2000 is not that long ago unless you are a newbie.
Jewel triggers have not been around forever. I can remember when they were the new deal as Canjar and Kenyon triggers became more difficult to find. Yes bullets vary by lot and always have. Tool makers and machinists shoot bench rest a lot and have been making and reaming their own dies for 60 or 70 years. I have some hand made stainless steel dies that are at least 40 years old. The truth is there are too many variables to claim that a Whidden die makes that much difference, especially when the guy asking for advice has a chumpy SAAMI factory chamber. Right now the only WTC die that you claim to know about is your own die.

I don't see that much difference in barrels or scopes in the last 5 years. I broke the records with a scope I bought in 2000 when I started. A Nightforce BR12x42.

The barrel was a few years old, maybe 2006 because I buy quite a few and stock them.

Jewell triggers have been around forever.

Bullets vary by lot and some lots need sorted and measured much better.

A lot of guys use Wilson to seat but it is their reamer ran in to make a perfect fit. The sizing dies are full length and usually custom. Mine is a WTC and one my buddy made on an Okuma.
Matt

The competition just has tightened in the last five or so years. I believe the main reason is because of forum's and our benchrest school and more guys learned how to reload better. Matt

 

[JRS]

You broke what records in what sport?
2000 is not that long ago unless you are a newbie.
Jewel triggers have not been around forever. I can remember when they were the new deal as Canjar and Kenyon triggers became more difficult to find. Yes bullets vary by lot and always have. Tool makers and machinists shoot bench rest a lot and have been making and reaming their own dies for 60 or 70 years. I have some hand made stainless steel dies that are at least 40 years old. The truth is there are too many variables to claim that a Whidden die makes that much difference, especially when the guy asking for advice has a chumpy SAAMI factory chamber. Right now the only WTC die that you claim to know about is your own die.

Matt isn't the only one using the Warner Tool Company dies. The very best usually results in parting with $$$$.

 

[ireload2]

Did you ever hear of a guy named D. Lee Braun? He was one of the best skeet shooters that ever lived. He shot an ordinary 1100 Remington and beat lots of Perrazi and Krieghoff shooters. You can't always buy your way into the winner's circle.
Try your dies in the Texas Panhandle and see how well they work in the wind.

Matt isn't the only one using the Warner Tool Company dies. The very best usually results in parting with $$$$.

 

[RemingtonAI]

I just started using the Hornady FLS die to bump my cases. The Hornday seating die came with the set so that's what I am using now. Compared to the Lee, the hornady seating die seems like it had a more positive feel when fully seated, but I never had any problems with the Lee. I have measured bullet run out with the Hornady Concentricity Gauge and they both give me almost exactly .001 runout measured just behind the shank/ogive junction. Noticed some with .0005 runout while seating last night with the Hornady though, and that's with using the expander ball. Guess this is slightly off topic but for what its worth I can confirm that I have produced very concentric ammo with the lee collet die, as well as Hornady.

 

[Barlow]

I read somewhere that the 5 shot, 100 yard benchrest record group was fired with a 222 Remington many years ago. I'm sure it has been beaten but it took a long time to do it. Donovan probably knows the story. Barlow

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Youre probably talking about mac mcmillans controversial .009 group

 

[M-61]

Youre probably talking about mac mcmillans controversial .009 group

I never heard it was 'controversial' ....except due to target handling afterwards it may really have been smaller. Can you send any link regarding that or just explain what happened?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Rumored to have been upside down, rumored to have shot beside the target into the backer, etc. heard he was mad it was measured that big.

 

[snakepit]

Best thing to do is call whidden and order a set of fl bushing dies and just be done with it.

I use a Whidden non-bushing die to size my brass. When ordering the die also order a Expander Ball Kit which comes with 5 Expander Balls so you can set your neck tension from .001" to .005". On its website Whidden says "this typically yields more concentric ammo in our experience and also fully sizes the case neck fully to the shoulder for smoother functioning".

 

[Grimstod]

I would say that higher $ dies are more concentrick. For example. I have put Lee dies into the lathe to modify and not only was the inside body .006 out. It was .014 out of round!!!

 

[sergeant69]

the problem i have w/measuring concentricity is this.......the case rests on and is rotated on a set of V blocks or steel balls (lets overlook my lack of proper terminology) but the concentricity is measured on the projectile. so, if the case is not 100%, or as to as possible, straight w/no surface flaws, the CASES flawed rotation will affect the reading on the PROJECTILE, giving a flawed reading. i have a Hornady and an older Neco, and measuring concentricity on the same cartridge gives entirely different readings. then when i steel wool the case to remove any surface flaws, i get another reading. thats my take anyway. i will be happy to revise my theory if someone can show me where i'm wrong.

 

[dickn52]

Bad die makers don't sell dies anymore. Yes, some may have a slight edge, and depending on how anal you are about what goes in your rifle you might get something really special. My opinion and for my needs, RCBS works just fine. As for concentricity guages, the Hornaday will allow you to straighten the case/bullet.

 

[dkhunt14]

Bad die makers don't sell dies anymore. Yes, some may have a slight edge, and depending on how anal you are about what goes in your rifle you might get something really special. My opinion and for my needs, RCBS works just fine. As for concentricity guages, the Hornaday will allow you to straighten the case/bullet.

I think when you straighten a bullet you also can loosen it. Now tensions can into play and that can be worse then a bullet that is slightly out of axis. Matt

 

[JRS]

I think when you straighten a bullet you also can loosen it. Now tensions can into play and that can be worse then a bullet that is slightly out of axis. Matt

+1

It isn't an arrow shaft.