Annealing Questions

[hoz53]

I have no regulator on my bench source. Dual tourch. Open valves very slowly starting at tank I use cutting torch striker Hold the striker against the tourch heads and when lighting. I also use a dark room to anneal

i use another propane torch (quick start type) to light my torches. its the easiest way for me. just as safe as any other way.

 

[NF1E]

I use the dark room and dull red appearance to judge temperature. Has work fine for many years and quite consistent with the Giraud. Whatta Hobby!

 

[wkdickinson]

When using these 20lb propane tanks, it's a good idea to use a regulator for easier control of the flow, giving you a visual, and helps keep the flow constant. I use a regulator when hooked up to my 20 pounder but seldom when using my 1 lb bottles. For a dual torch set up like you have, I'd highly recommend you use a regulator.

A bit off subject, but maybe some more insight - some years ago I read an article about using two-stage regulators on a gas grill for consistent heat (as propane in tank was used and pressure reduced). I decided to try it and it worked amazingly well. (Amazon sells them and they are inexpensive, but buy an adjustable one)! I made a manometer from plastic tubing and colored water. Then set the 2nd stage of the regulator to the proper pressure (I forget the number). From then on, I got consistent heat, no matter how much gas was in the tank. Seems like this would be applicable to a propane annealer setup also, to offer more consistent temperatures.

FYI - I gave up on flame annealing (Annealeez), several years ago and built an induction annealer using a "frozen bolt heater" (plans on YouTube). It works great! Fast and consistent. I do it in a darkened room and have the timer set so the neck just glows red.

 

[BHP9]

I don't see any sort of regulator in you setup. That doesn't seem right.

I use the AGS annealer and no regulator on the tank and zero problems with flame control.

Not required UNLESS the Annealer manufacturer says otherwise.

 

[Straightshooter1]

A bit off subject, but maybe some more insight - some years ago I read an article about using two-stage regulators on a gas grill for consistent heat (as propane in tank was used and pressure reduced). I decided to try it and it worked amazingly well. (Amazon sells them and they are inexpensive, but buy an adjustable one)! I made a manometer from plastic tubing and colored water. Then set the 2nd stage of the regulator to the proper pressure (I forget the number). From then on, I got consistent heat, no matter how much gas was in the tank. Seems like this would be applicable to a propane annealer setup also, to offer more consistent temperatures.

As I also have an adjustable regulator, I find it really helps with a consistent heat . . . particularly when using the 1 lb propane bottles.

FYI - I gave up on flame annealing (Annealeez), several years ago and built an induction annealer using a "frozen bolt heater" (plans on YouTube). It works great! Fast and consistent. I do it in a darkened room and have the timer set so the neck just glows red.

I've been using an Annealeez for many years and getting pretty good results. Then just recently, I decided to get the new BurstFire induction annealer (the price was right ). So, I've gone through a bunch of testing as I did before, finding the right timing as it doesn't have a feature like the AMP machine to get the right timing. Testing various brass as various setting and measuring the hardness was much like with flame annealing, in having to look at the necks to see when and how long they'd turn red. But with the induction, it takes less time to get there. Interestingly, with my BurstFire, compared to my Annealeez, the full cycle to get from one case to the next annealed to my target hardness was only slightly faster, though that difference adds up when doing hundreds. In comparing the end results between the two machines and the methods, I could find no difference otherwise.

 

[JMayo]

The regulator is the torch heads.
Tiny hole takes a long time to purge air.
I cut the torch end first then cut off the cans leaving gas in the lines.
Also a tiny tiny amount of knob turn or it'll blow itself out.

 

[sparky123321]

I always cringe when I see a new annealing thread. I used to use the torch type annealers, but switched over to an Annie many years ago and never looked back.

 

[kelbro]

The regulator is the torch heads.
Tiny hole takes a long time to purge air.
I cut the torch end first then cut off the cans leaving gas in the lines.
Also a tiny tiny amount of knob turn or it'll blow itself out.

Makes sense. The green 1lb bottles don't have a regulator and they work.

 

[NileCitySlick]

I use the AGS Custom annealing machine. Can do single or dual flame. Easy to use. Costs about $300 and comes with two sets (308, 223) of shell adapters. PPC set another $40. It spins the brass while in the flame, uses a programmable timer, and shell drops in to a can/bin when done. agsannealer.com

 

[Mike in Oregon]

I just ordered a low-pressure regulator with dual lines. I think I was dealing with air in the lines still. The hole is VERY small (and i mean small) in the torch head.

I think running a regulator will smooth things out even better. Im also going to switch to a 20lb tank. What a learning experience! This weekend I will try it again. Thanks guys!

 

[Mike in Oregon]

I use the AGS Custom annealing machine. Can do single or dual flame. Easy to use. Costs about $300 and comes with two sets (308, 223) of shell adapters. PPC set another $40. It spins the brass while in the flame, uses a programmable timer, and shell drops in to a can/bin when done. agsannealer.com

As mentioned, I'm using the Bench Source. I did consider the AGS however. I opted for the BS, as Eric Cortina sold me on it, after watching his videos. Then the Amp came out. I would have had a very hard time justifying that kind of money so early into my comeback to reloading. Who knows, maybe down the road...

 

[jxb]

I have the same issue as mentioned above with my dual setup and the AGS, I get one head going, turn it down to min flame then light the other and work them both up to where I want them. It's definitely finicky and how cold it is affects it too, worse in the cold, better in the warm. I'm just running mine from my 1 or 2 gal bottles (yes they make those and they are wonderful camping, esp backcountry horse/mule packing).

 

[Webster]

It's really hard to get case heads too hot unless you really leave the case in a fame for a really long time, like it'd have to look something like the one in this picture: View attachment 1748362

Getting the neck to turn red for a second or a fraction of a second doesn't give enough time for heat to move down build up to a level that'd initiate any annealing effect at the head due to the short time and much lower temperature at the head. And the brass very rapidly cools off just subject to the ambient air; . . . the speed of cooling down happens in an exponential fashion. You can use water to cool them down really fast so you can handle them sooner, but then they're wet and takes time to dry them out; simply an unnecessary precaution with the additional step in the process.

If one wants to see just how hot the case gets at the head, one could paint some stripes of various temperature Tempilaqs down the side at the bottom to get a good idea what the maximum temperature it gets to. Just keep in mind that any annealing that takes place is a function of a temperature over a period of time. If the head were to get to 750°F (400°C), it'd have to be at that temperature like for 30 minutes or more to get any annealing (if any) done.

A little hotter than I get them, should be OK. I don't get the shoulder that red.

 

[Oldbloke]

"I use the dark room and dull red appearance to judge temperature. Has work fine for many years and quite consistent with the Giraud. Whatta Hobby!"

Yep, I don't even use a drill, rotate by hand. Abt 5-6 seconds for these 223 cases.

It isn't rocket science like the marketing guru's will tell you.

 

[danny]

Makes sense. The green 1lb bottles don't have a regulator and they work.

Are those the squat bottles that are marked for some kind of camping purpose?

Danny

 

[Oldbloke]

Wether they have a regulator just depends on the type of burner (torch) used.
Regulator reduces the pressure down to well under 1psi and the burner needs a very large jet.(s) Traditionally for cooking.

If there is no regulator you use burners (or torches) with extremely small jets which sort of act like a regulator.

LPG is IIRC about 95psi when it's liquid in a bottle.

 

[kelbro]

Are those the squat bottles that are marked for some kind of camping purpose?

Danny

Yes.

 

[Tesoro]

Hey Mike in Oregon
About 10 years ago ands some I bought a bench source and had a long chat with the fellow who makes them. This is what I learned from him and after practice:

-Using Tempilac to set heat level is a total waste of time and money, it is not designed for direct heat and makes a holy mess.
-Set your flame time based on getting a dark cherry red glow on inside of neck observed in very low lighting. With small cases like 223 an optivisor helps to id the right glow.
-One torch will suffice for most cases. 2 will cook too fast for fine tuning
-A one pound coleman canister will last a looong time. KISS
-The best torch heads imo are the fine tipped flame types for small to medium cases. They cook slower but they give you more time to adjust the clock and can be better pin pointed at where you want the center of the heat to be concentrated.
-Not all torch heads of same make/model off the rack are equal. Might have to try 2 or 3 to find the perfect one. Return the others.
-The idea is to heat the neck evenly and not over heat the tip before the base of neck is treated. Therefore the flame tip needs to be aimed downward at an ie 20-30 deg angle pointed somewhere just above the neck shoulder junction so that some of the heat is absorbed into the shoulder. Where you aim depends on the neck length. The shorter the neck the closer to the junction.
-Once you are annealing correctly you will be able to see some heat discoloration that extends no further than 1/3 way down the case. You wont be able to duplicate the new brass Lapua look, but you should see some discoloration, which should be even from case to case.
-It is better to over anneal a tad than under anneal.
-I made a tin chute to direct the dropped cases into a cookie pan, instead of piling up right underneath the trap door until they jammed up the machine.
-Make sure you dont run any cases thru the machine with live primers ( dont ask me how I know lol)