AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[Benchrest Braxton]

My thought is that the harder the brass gets, the harder it is to size, so that when you move it in with a bushing or out with a mandrel, rather than speeding back, it stays where it is.

So, when you size hardened brass with a neck bushing, and then insert the bullet, ie, a mandrel, the brass opens up to the size of the bullet with less neck tension or hold.

correct, the hardened brass is trying to stay where it is because of its increased elastic properties/stored energy.

as the the brass gets worked more and more towards 100% cold worked (spring hard), you need to move (yield) the brass more than you would annealed brass to get it to stay where you want.

the only reason you wouldn't be able to get good neck tension with hardened brass is because your old bushing that was working well with softer brass, isn't moving the hardened brass enough to make the interference fit the same.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Apparently, there's a misunderstanding as to to relationship for "elastic" to being "springy", huh?

"Hardened brass" resists movement and wants to retain its shape when force is applied to it and the term "springy" can mean how far the material can bend before it doesn't return to its original shape, which is what I hear you saying. Annealing makes the brass more "elastic", meaning it's less resistant to movement. Like, fully annealed brass has little resistance to movement and will be more like damp clay. What we try to achieve when annealing our brass is something in-between "hardened brass" and fully annealed brass. The main goal is for consistency in how the neck holds the bullet, but not so loose that the bullet will move in the magazine due to recoil or for any other reason before being fired.

Bottom line . . . our annealing process makes the brass more elastic and less "springy".

you are misunderstanding what the meaning of elasticity is, a material can have a low or high modulus of elasticity depending on its hardness.....

i agree with you, just a little misunderstanding on the terms we are using.

Case Neck Tension - A Stress Analysis

Neck Tension and Case Hardness

bisonballistics.com

@damoncali

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Not really.

i get what you are saying, thanks alex

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Again, this is simply not true.

explain to me then how its not true

 

[B y r o n]

The process you use to anneal your brass simply has to be consistent. Flame with Templaq or simply timed or Amp annealed, it just needs to be consistent. The more consistent the better the accuracy.

 

[Bob in WI]

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass. I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

Some people just seem dead set on preaching their point of view of what they read vs listening to what real world shooters / reloaders are experiencing. I have noticed that a few times in this thread.
Guessing there will be a rebutal forthcoming..

 

[Straightshooter1]

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass. I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

Not experiencing spring-back suggests to me a custom chamber and sizing dies that don't move the neck or shoulder much when your cartridges are fired. The more movement that's incurred from firing and then sizing, the more work hardening that takes place resulting in some amount of spring-back. It's simply laws of physics. And though it's possible to not experience spring-back that's noticeable, it's not possible to not get work hardening of your cases. . . .just not as much as those with chambers that move the brass a lot more. If you're unaware of the work hardening taking place, it's probably because you don't have the equipment to measure the Vicker's hardness to really know how much working hardening that's actually taking place. . .???

 

[Ccrider]

I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass.

Just curious, how much are you moving your shoulders and necks when sizing? I know that some of the best shooters do not anneal but also know that their reloading process is well refined.

Records have been set by those that don’t anneal and by those that do. The common denominators are excellent shooters and reloaders using excellent equipment. Not so much annealing or not annealing.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I wont presume to tell you what’s going on in your reloading room but I have 370 pieces of many times reloaded competition brass sitting here that tell a different story than the one you are telling.
I don’t experience spring back nor work hardening from not annealing the brass. I use a bushing .004 under a loaded round OD without any lost tension issues at all, so with all due respect you are making blanket statements that do not align with the results that myself along with other reloader’s are seeing and experiencing.

I was thinking that. Thanks for saying it.

Numerous times when not annealing, I have gotten to the point to where the hardened brass would not even hold the bullet so I had to use smaller bushings.

here is a member who is claiming he experienced some sizing changes due to work hardening of the brass.

clearly, your brass has reached a state of equilibrium with the hardness after many firings and you have refined/adapted for it in such a way that you just aren't noticing it/affecting you anymore.

but if you set up for annealed, and then switched over to no longer annealing, you would slowly begin to notice changes due to the work hardening.

 

[Ccrider]

If you shout then same brass enough times and size it down enough, you see something that I call work hardening. The main thing for me is that it affects how the rifle shoots. Use custom fitted dies moving the shoulders less than .002 and sizing the necks to the minimum and, keep your brass in the same rotation and you will not need to anneal.

The sloppier your process is, the more benefit you will likely get from annealing.

 

[JimPag]

Well somebody should tell Tony Boyer that he would of been a better shooter if he annealed his brass because he told me he never ever annealed his at all.

 

[Shooter13]

It absolutely equates to accuracy, consistent seating pressure, consistent bullet release = smaller groups down range all other things equal.
Wayne

Exactly Wayne! So many people have no clue............ BUT......... they have an opinion, just like everyone has a ( ) you know.

 

[Shooter13]

Well somebody should tell Tony Boyer that he would of been a better shooter if he annealed his brass because he told me he never ever annealed his at all.

Yes this is true BUT Tony didn't use his brass like we do, from what I've read 4 firings was a lot for him and he got FREE Lapua brass, I don't.

 

[bozo699]

Yes this is true BUT Tony didn't use his brass like we do, from what I've read 4 firings was a lot for him and he got FREE Lapua brass, I don't.

Tony was the best for sure but he shot short range br , different applications for different disciplines, I don’t think jackieschmidt anneals his brass either. Most guys I know shooting be at 600-1000 do
Wayne

 

[Kevin1990]

No offense to anyone on here, but does anyone have a large enough test group for each to factually state one over the other? Im genuinely curious, and not trying to be rude.

I mean like documentation, everything done on the same day and the same conditions. Something a little more scientific than just saying one over the other. I'm not talking a couple 5 round groups. I'm talking 100s of rounds if not 1,000s.

I'm pretty new to the scene, so forgive my ignorance, but it's my observation that alot of people do things in the reloading process that don't effect or help accuracy, and have zero data to actually back what they are doing, and speak of it as though it is gospel.

Edit. If a guy shooting bench rest who was a winner over and over, told me a specific way to do things, I'd follow that lead and probably not question much, so I can see the flip side of the very argument I made.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Hey Braxton,

Welcome to the party! You probably already know this, but social media is a breeding ground for disagreeable attitudes. Don't ever let the critics get you down (everyone has an agenda). If they really don't want to hear/see your test results, they won't watch.

I can tell you from experience that there are people around that will do anything in their power to discredit and silence you if you find something through testing that doesn't agree with their world view. My advice is to grow thick skin, and realize that you may have been the first person to discover or publicly acknowledge an interesting observation. Others will come along and do subsequent testing that will either validate your findings or show where the noise in the data got you pointed the wrong way. For the serious competitors, all data is valuable.

I would love to see the results of your testing. I love good science, regardless of the conclusions. Data is power when it's turned into information and understood for its value. Shooting testing is a challenging thing due to the seemingly limitless noise that gets introduced into the data.

Best of luck with your testing. Let me know if I can be of service,
Keith

 

[bozo699]

Hey Braxton,

Welcome to the party! You probably already know this, but social media is a breeding ground for disagreeable attitudes. Don't ever let the critics get you down (everyone has an agenda). If they really don't want to hear/see your test results, they won't watch.

I can tell you from experience that there are people around that will do anything in their power to discredit and silence you if you find something through testing that doesn't agree with their world view. My advice is to grow thick skin, and realize that you may have been the first person to discover or publicly acknowledge an interesting observation. Others will come along and do subsequent testing that will either validate your findings or show where the noise in the data got you pointed the wrong way. For the serious competitors, all data is valuable.

I would love to see the results of your testing. I love good science, regardless of the conclusions. Data is power when it's turned into information and understood for its value. Shooting testing is a challenging thing due to the seemingly limitless noise that gets introduced into the data.

Best of luck with your testing. Let me know if I can be of service,
Keith

That’s good advice Braxton and very well said Keith!…. As I told you several times Braxton I wish you well with your YouTube gig…. You put this out I’ll watch it!…. I really do want you to succeed we need every new shooter we can get to keep the sport alive and thriving.
Wayne

P.S
I as well will help you if I can

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

That’s good advice Braxton and very well said Keith!…. As I told you several times Braxton I wish you well with your YouTube gig…. You put this out I’ll watch it!…. I really do want you to succeed we need every new shooter we can get to keep the sport alive and thriving.
Wayne

P.S
I as well will help you if I can

Hey Braxton,

Welcome to the party! You probably already know this, but social media is a breeding ground for disagreeable attitudes. Don't ever let the critics get you down (everyone has an agenda). If they really don't want to hear/see your test results, they won't watch.

I can tell you from experience that there are people around that will do anything in their power to discredit and silence you if you find something through testing that doesn't agree with their world view. My advice is to grow thick skin, and realize that you may have been the first person to discover or publicly acknowledge an interesting observation. Others will come along and do subsequent testing that will either validate your findings or show where the noise in the data got you pointed the wrong way. For the serious competitors, all data is valuable.

I would love to see the results of your testing. I love good science, regardless of the conclusions. Data is power when it's turned into information and understood for its value. Shooting testing is a challenging thing due to the seemingly limitless noise that gets introduced into the data.

Best of luck with your testing. Let me know if I can be of service,
Keith

appreciate the encouragement guys!

 

[Ccrider]

The point @JFrank made is true. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Some of the best shooters and record holders on this site don’t anneal. Some of the best shooters on this site and record holders anneal. What they all have in common is that they perfected their different processes including what they did in their reloading rooms and made it work for them.

Tony Boyer did not anneal. Bart Sauter anneals. Both f them are pretty good shooters and had pretty good results. This comparison confirms what I am saying even though it is not helpful to compare what long range shooters do with what works for short range.

Flame vs Amp vs not annealing at all is an easy question for me. I have tested all three and also salt bath. They all work if done consistently. Some are easier to do than others.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Im sure you will see a difference if you test this. Theres a difference just in how much you anneal. I shot a lot of annealed vs non annealed test in many different cartridges. All long range stuff. I also get all the feedback from customers so I get to see what guys are doing that are having success all over the country. Based on all of that I will say that you can do it both ways. You can have equal success annealing or not annealing. You ma come to a conclusion that annealing is better or that it hurt accuracy in your rifle. But in the next one the results can flip. If the same size is large enough your going to see that. Now personally I do not anneal. I never got improvement on target. In many cases it didnt hurt though. When I compare my process to others who are having success with annealing I do see some differences. Ill use the BRA for an example. I tend to run a lot of neck tension and I like the high node. When I look at the guys that are shooting small annealing, they are running half as much neck tension and are on the low node. There are probably some other differences but those are the most common ones. The cases that I could not shoot the difference in liked really light neck tension. My 338 lapua imp is a good example, the lighter you go the better and annealed brass shot great. My point is that any test you do will apply to your setup only. You cant come to conclusions based on others. You need to test this for yourself. Annealing effects neck tension and its part of your tune. Test it, and test your neck bushings too. It should be looked at like seating depth and powder charge. Just another part of the tune