AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[Shooter13]

It absolutely equates to accuracy, consistent seating pressure, consistent bullet release = smaller groups down range all other things equal.
Wayne

Exactly Wayne! So many people have no clue............ BUT......... they have an opinion, just like everyone has a ( ) you know.

 

[Shooter13]

Well somebody should tell Tony Boyer that he would of been a better shooter if he annealed his brass because he told me he never ever annealed his at all.

Yes this is true BUT Tony didn't use his brass like we do, from what I've read 4 firings was a lot for him and he got FREE Lapua brass, I don't.

 

[bozo699]

Yes this is true BUT Tony didn't use his brass like we do, from what I've read 4 firings was a lot for him and he got FREE Lapua brass, I don't.

Tony was the best for sure but he shot short range br , different applications for different disciplines, I don’t think jackieschmidt anneals his brass either. Most guys I know shooting be at 600-1000 do
Wayne

 

[Kevin1990]

No offense to anyone on here, but does anyone have a large enough test group for each to factually state one over the other? Im genuinely curious, and not trying to be rude.

I mean like documentation, everything done on the same day and the same conditions. Something a little more scientific than just saying one over the other. I'm not talking a couple 5 round groups. I'm talking 100s of rounds if not 1,000s.

I'm pretty new to the scene, so forgive my ignorance, but it's my observation that alot of people do things in the reloading process that don't effect or help accuracy, and have zero data to actually back what they are doing, and speak of it as though it is gospel.

Edit. If a guy shooting bench rest who was a winner over and over, told me a specific way to do things, I'd follow that lead and probably not question much, so I can see the flip side of the very argument I made.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Hey Braxton,

Welcome to the party! You probably already know this, but social media is a breeding ground for disagreeable attitudes. Don't ever let the critics get you down (everyone has an agenda). If they really don't want to hear/see your test results, they won't watch.

I can tell you from experience that there are people around that will do anything in their power to discredit and silence you if you find something through testing that doesn't agree with their world view. My advice is to grow thick skin, and realize that you may have been the first person to discover or publicly acknowledge an interesting observation. Others will come along and do subsequent testing that will either validate your findings or show where the noise in the data got you pointed the wrong way. For the serious competitors, all data is valuable.

I would love to see the results of your testing. I love good science, regardless of the conclusions. Data is power when it's turned into information and understood for its value. Shooting testing is a challenging thing due to the seemingly limitless noise that gets introduced into the data.

Best of luck with your testing. Let me know if I can be of service,
Keith

 

[bozo699]

Hey Braxton,

Welcome to the party! You probably already know this, but social media is a breeding ground for disagreeable attitudes. Don't ever let the critics get you down (everyone has an agenda). If they really don't want to hear/see your test results, they won't watch.

I can tell you from experience that there are people around that will do anything in their power to discredit and silence you if you find something through testing that doesn't agree with their world view. My advice is to grow thick skin, and realize that you may have been the first person to discover or publicly acknowledge an interesting observation. Others will come along and do subsequent testing that will either validate your findings or show where the noise in the data got you pointed the wrong way. For the serious competitors, all data is valuable.

I would love to see the results of your testing. I love good science, regardless of the conclusions. Data is power when it's turned into information and understood for its value. Shooting testing is a challenging thing due to the seemingly limitless noise that gets introduced into the data.

Best of luck with your testing. Let me know if I can be of service,
Keith

That’s good advice Braxton and very well said Keith!…. As I told you several times Braxton I wish you well with your YouTube gig…. You put this out I’ll watch it!…. I really do want you to succeed we need every new shooter we can get to keep the sport alive and thriving.
Wayne

P.S
I as well will help you if I can

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

That’s good advice Braxton and very well said Keith!…. As I told you several times Braxton I wish you well with your YouTube gig…. You put this out I’ll watch it!…. I really do want you to succeed we need every new shooter we can get to keep the sport alive and thriving.
Wayne

P.S
I as well will help you if I can

Hey Braxton,

Welcome to the party! You probably already know this, but social media is a breeding ground for disagreeable attitudes. Don't ever let the critics get you down (everyone has an agenda). If they really don't want to hear/see your test results, they won't watch.

I can tell you from experience that there are people around that will do anything in their power to discredit and silence you if you find something through testing that doesn't agree with their world view. My advice is to grow thick skin, and realize that you may have been the first person to discover or publicly acknowledge an interesting observation. Others will come along and do subsequent testing that will either validate your findings or show where the noise in the data got you pointed the wrong way. For the serious competitors, all data is valuable.

I would love to see the results of your testing. I love good science, regardless of the conclusions. Data is power when it's turned into information and understood for its value. Shooting testing is a challenging thing due to the seemingly limitless noise that gets introduced into the data.

Best of luck with your testing. Let me know if I can be of service,
Keith

appreciate the encouragement guys!

 

[Ccrider]

The point @JFrank made is true. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Some of the best shooters and record holders on this site don’t anneal. Some of the best shooters on this site and record holders anneal. What they all have in common is that they perfected their different processes including what they did in their reloading rooms and made it work for them.

Tony Boyer did not anneal. Bart Sauter anneals. Both f them are pretty good shooters and had pretty good results. This comparison confirms what I am saying even though it is not helpful to compare what long range shooters do with what works for short range.

Flame vs Amp vs not annealing at all is an easy question for me. I have tested all three and also salt bath. They all work if done consistently. Some are easier to do than others.

 

[JFrank]

I would also echo the encouragement by these fine and knowledgeable members to do your testing and promote the shooting discipline but find a way to describe and define your results as your own. There are many ways to get positive results, I won’t dispute science and vickers hardness whatever it was or what others have found. I know guys that anneal and guys that do not and nether approach holds back a good shooter.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Im sure you will see a difference if you test this. Theres a difference just in how much you anneal. I shot a lot of annealed vs non annealed test in many different cartridges. All long range stuff. I also get all the feedback from customers so I get to see what guys are doing that are having success all over the country. Based on all of that I will say that you can do it both ways. You can have equal success annealing or not annealing. You ma come to a conclusion that annealing is better or that it hurt accuracy in your rifle. But in the next one the results can flip. If the same size is large enough your going to see that. Now personally I do not anneal. I never got improvement on target. In many cases it didnt hurt though. When I compare my process to others who are having success with annealing I do see some differences. Ill use the BRA for an example. I tend to run a lot of neck tension and I like the high node. When I look at the guys that are shooting small annealing, they are running half as much neck tension and are on the low node. There are probably some other differences but those are the most common ones. The cases that I could not shoot the difference in liked really light neck tension. My 338 lapua imp is a good example, the lighter you go the better and annealed brass shot great. My point is that any test you do will apply to your setup only. You cant come to conclusions based on others. You need to test this for yourself. Annealing effects neck tension and its part of your tune. Test it, and test your neck bushings too. It should be looked at like seating depth and powder charge. Just another part of the tune

 

[Bottom Fodder]

^^^^^^^ what Alex just said is more meaningful to me than all the other post
its like every other thing we do in the reloading room which is fined what your gun likes.

 

[rijndael]

its like every other thing we do in the reloading room which is fined what your gun likes.

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

 

[bozo699]

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

I believe there’s a few out here providing annealing services DJ may be one of them, if you don’t want to test for $1700 and I don’t blame ya have them anneal your brass and see if it helps or hinders?…
Wayne

 

[Pete Wass]

This last part simply isn’t true.

I disagree. Think about it again.

 

[Pete Wass]

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

There isn't much, if any guessing. These machines have been in production plenty long enough to have bad reports out there. My first experience with an AMP one of my friends has. I went to his house and did 100 pieces and that made a huge impression, to the point I bought one. I could have used his any time but I wanted my own and there is that Nursing Home thing .

 

[rijndael]

There isn't much, if any guessing. These machines have been in production plenty long enough to have bad reports out there.

The comment about guessing was in the context of flame or other methods (salt) annealing, and when proper anneal has been reached.

It wasn't about the AMP machine's efficacy or durability.

 

[Pete Wass]

Not exactly in this vane but the question of neck tension. I have watched a couple of videos about testing neck tensions. One presenter had a line chart, computer generated. He came up with .002" set with a mandrill, as giving the most accuracy. I bought into it. As far as I can tell that setting does produce great results. Only adds 1 step to loading. Here's where consistent annealing come in. To hold .002" one really needs soft necks.

 

[JimPag]

Yes this is true BUT Tony didn't use his brass like we do, from what I've read 4 firings was a lot for him and he got FREE Lapua brass, I don't.

He used his brass more than you think he did or what you read. I got that from the horse's mouth and yes he did get his brass for free and also his N133 that he used.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Well, that's kind of why I started this thread.

The issue you run in to is ... If you believe AMP (and many others), the only way to properly anneal is to use an AMP, everything else is guessing. But, you're talking about a $1700 expense to "test it for yourself". That's a pretty expensive entry fee.

well if I had to pay $1700 for a annealer there is a 99% chance I would not anneal

 

[Pete Wass]

The comment about guessing was in the context of flame or other methods (salt) annealing, and when proper anneal has been reached.

It wasn't about the AMP machine's efficacy or durability.

I've been through the others as I have stated elsewhere. I gave my Salt Bath stuff away last year and I never liked the results from the Ken Light machine. Some of us have been through a LOT!