Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
If there is a condition, there are always indicators if you know what to look for. I can't see ground level flags being useful for long range. :-/
Accuracy VS velocities
- Thread starter AWLEAPHART
- Start date
If there is a condition, there are always indicators if you know what to look for. I can't see ground level flags being useful for long range. :-/
Jay,
I know I've heard that a lot!
But when you don't have mirage what are the indicators. Help a brother out? How do you identify the condition. What are the indicators. What do you look for?
I'm not trying to pin your ears back. But specifics would be helpful.
Bart
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I think we need to quantify the distance we are speaking about. I think it makes a big difference. I have shot all of them and prefer flags out to 600. At 1k I switch to mirage. I have shot better this way. Theres almost always mirage to read at 1k. Very few times I can recall there not being any and those days are usually perfect and you dont have to read, you just shoot small. Of course most of this doesnt mean anything because every range is different and what you read at various ranges will change. Wide open ranges will be very different than ranges in the mountains or with timber lanes cut through or berms or over ponds exc. A lot more geography comes into play at 1k than the closer distances. So while talking wind reading at 100 makes sense, talking wind reading at 1k should include the specific geography or the range for it to have real meaning.
Deep creek for example, the first 2/3s of the range has a mountain to the left and timber on the right. 4-5 very high F-class berms out for 5-600 yards or so. We get a wind that comes from behind and goes over those berms. The last few hundred yards, the mountain on the left ends and the timber on the right is logged out. Actually a 500 meter range is perpendicular to the 1k range here. so you get a cross wind through there. So reading mirage close to the target is the most predominant condition and feeling the wind or one close flag tells you if your getting that tail wind that will cause vertical over the berms. For me thats going to be the best bet at this range. Clutter it up with more flags and it too much extra less important info for me to process. At Butner or Manatee give me flags right down the middle and I'll use those mainly with some target mirage to a lesser value. Still a guy needs to observe the prevailing condition of the day to decide what to watch.
Deep creek for example, the first 2/3s of the range has a mountain to the left and timber on the right. 4-5 very high F-class berms out for 5-600 yards or so. We get a wind that comes from behind and goes over those berms. The last few hundred yards, the mountain on the left ends and the timber on the right is logged out. Actually a 500 meter range is perpendicular to the 1k range here. so you get a cross wind through there. So reading mirage close to the target is the most predominant condition and feeling the wind or one close flag tells you if your getting that tail wind that will cause vertical over the berms. For me thats going to be the best bet at this range. Clutter it up with more flags and it too much extra less important info for me to process. At Butner or Manatee give me flags right down the middle and I'll use those mainly with some target mirage to a lesser value. Still a guy needs to observe the prevailing condition of the day to decide what to watch.
Northridge
Gold $$ Contributor
Bart that is a wise question & I know why you inquire those are the toughest days to shoot hands down for most "some" venues f-class or general score shooting to be specific." I take my beanie off" If a guy has unlimited sighters I will start to bracket different flag indicators if available if flags are not available then maybe ground affects trees, bushes, brush etc. if there is a major fall off in terrain between you and said target this gets tricky but each range is handled different base on the feed back you get back from bracketing. all the while i am counting in my head or say a stop watch what the most obvious or prevailing condition may be and how long it will last in seconds or minutes. once I start though when target feed back is available my shooting frequency go's up a tad as i am a brisk shooting on a average day anyway, but i want that info as quickly and close together as i can for the finest adjustment possible. some view this method as short minded thinking that your just shooting and not calculating your shots but they could not be further from the truth. as you are placing shots your platform will tell you when your about to pop the bubble before the bubble brakes more often then not, but any method has its risks at this point. wind direction change left to right tail wind changes that go with out noticed on these days or relays can be killers. now lets get rid off target feed back long range 1000 yard bench rest specifically 600 is cheating because on these day that are overcast target picture can be bad ass so you can see your group forming and that's cheating when group starts to slip you can manage the damage 1000 not so much. OK 1000 yard targets are up I start to bracket in same manner how are things affecting my fellow shooters left and right but usually there target info is knowledge but not useful as i don't know if there shooting match ammo or crap ammo Pryor to there record string "Lonnie Anderson" the master of deception Lol. here is where that ammo catalog gets put to task i will start with my wind sensitive bad ass ammo as i usually have more of in then any other but then there is the score shooting ammo i have sitting on my bench you know that ammo with more vertical built in for moments like this. if while bracketing i cant pick up that one shot that's really get kicked out I will make a judgement to grab other said ammo and shoot my record string as efficient as I can, all the while my beanie has bean off while shooting if I feel slight changes I will make slight adjustment while sending my string NEVER STOPPING as this does not pay off in the long run for me. every 100 score I have earned has been achieved on days like this & never on calm condition less days practice is another story.
hard to put in print
shawn williams
Raining days all bets off... they are hands down the best days to shoot if i could have light rain every match & a covered canopy i would be a happy man
Alex,
Let's talk 1K shooting. You have a range that has key terrain features that are key but you can only watch so much. Your scope if set for the target and it is going will show you near target mirage. Do you have another scope on the bench and focus it where you feel the dominant condition is?
Northridge
Gold $$ Contributor
Bart its "hard love" at deep creek as I suspect other ranges to be this way with there regular agg shooting buddies who tolerate one another. this is what i love about tom Mousel couple shoots ago I secured a 100 score on a rifle to that I dubbed the five shot wonder not because it said it could not size up but I had not given it that chance. so first ten shot string I gave it bam!! secured a nice group and a 100 5x the following month first group another of the weekend 100 score cool right? here comes tom with my folded target and I quote "you shot another one 100 score, you used the WHOLE FLIPPING TEN RING but a 100 score none the less. a high five and a kick in the nuts all at the same setting nothing better Lol.
shawn williams
shawn williams
I just want to say thanks to all you guys time and info put into this. I know there is a little heart burn going on but I just want you knowledgeable
guy's to know that people like me learning to read wind at 600 and 1000 and just starting to shoot, when they reading all the info on here, it's the boom. Its coming from people with hands on experience. Instead of walking one path I have many now.
Thanks
Anthony L
guy's to know that people like me learning to read wind at 600 and 1000 and just starting to shoot, when they reading all the info on here, it's the boom. Its coming from people with hands on experience. Instead of walking one path I have many now.
Thanks
Anthony L
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
The dominant condition here is at the target usually. The last few hundred yards of the range. Flags up close will not show you where the bullet will print on target. You will do very well if you do nothing other than read the mirage at the target here. My shooting style makes me want to only watch the most important indicators. I do not stop a group once I start. I will hold as the condition changes. So I have to be able to see a change in between shots. A sea of flags or a spotting scope is going to do me no good, I wont have time to analyze that data. About mid range theres another smaller cut on the right. We will have a flag there sometimes. Sometimes its honest other times it does not seem to effect the bullet. Whats interesting is we put flags just under the targets. You can see them in your scope. I bet they are 50 yds in front of the target. I have seen them do all kinds of things. Many times they will run the opposite direction of the mirage. The mirage is always right. I have actually seem the flags do a 180 and shot through it because the mirage didnt change, the group was small.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I am sitting at the podeum calling the line these days, so I have a different point of view now. Its interesting to watch. Some relays that I think were really good didnt pan out and vise versa.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
TO: primarily 100yd tuners/developers (Jim, Larry, etc..), but also to anyone/everyone
Senario:
Questions:
I will give reply back in 24-hours
Donovan
Senario:
- Pictured below is 5 groups, 3-shots to each, at 100yds.
Questions:
- which of the 5 would you predict to perform best at 1000yds and why
- which of the 5 would you predict to perform the worse at 1000yds and why
- which would disperse the worse vertical dispersion at 1000yds
- which would disperse the worse horizontal dispersion at 1000yds
I will give reply back in 24-hours
Donovan
Last edited:
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
Can't give away all my secrets. Reading the condition is what separates the the pack at high power score matches. There are always flags (some ranges have more than other, placed more usefully than others), surrounding terrain, mirage, etc... as long as there is a condition that is worth doping (i.e., taking me out of the X-ring) there is always something look at. That doesn't mean you'll read it right, but it'll be there. Part of the high power game is developing that experience. It might not be as accurate as mechanical wind flags are, but then, mechanical wind flags are a no go for our game (so far as I am aware), so it's not really worth worrying about.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
BS Jay, you just chase the spotter. Admit it!!! lol
Northridge
Gold $$ Contributor
jay is pretty handy and getting handier thumbs up!!
Donovan, none...... when they are under a .1 with single digit es. and repeat at least 3 times in a row they will shoot 2"or less at 1000 ....... Jim
Donovan,
I'm with Jim. If that was the best my gun would shot at 100 yards Id put on another barrel. You may have ended up setting records with it, but it would have never made it to the match.
Here a couple of pics of mine and Dustys targets. These are from the 1000 yard Nationals at Hawks Ridge a couple years ago. We tuned at 100/200 as best we could. BECAUSE that's all we had. Showed up at the range on Friday and set up our reloading gear (powder throw). Needless to say we stuck out like a soar thumb. A couple of dumbass short range guys! At first they had some clay birds scattered on the bank. You could sightin at but really couldn't tell how the guns were shooting. Finally around 2 o'clock for 5 bucks they would put up a target to shoot at. Shot the first target and it was vertical 8 inches. The next target we cut Groups down to the 3 to 4 inch range. Which was about as good as the range would give us for the conditions. By this time we have a crowd standing around us. I heard one guy ask his buddy, "How did they do that?" Up until that time we had never pulled the trigger at 1000 yards.
We didn't do great Overall at the match but our relays got wiped out by an incoming storm. However Dusty and I both managed to Win a relay. Mine for score and Dusty for group. First time out, never shot a 1000 yards before. Tuned at 100 tweaked load at distance.
Dusty's relay win!
We did not know that we could not do that!
Bart
PS. May 4th be with you!
dragman
Site $$ Sponsor
# 4 will probably prove the best and #2 the worst. I don't like the paper used as I can't see the bullet entry as cleanly as I would like. None are what I would think are finished products but that is my gut feeling from what I see. I don't do well trying to explain stuff in type.
1 the best 4 the worst, I like a little bit of vertical at 100, don't know why but it works.
Ga. Dawg
Silver $$ Contributor
Question 1 - 2 would be best
Question 2 - 5 the worst
Question 3 - 5 the most vertical
Question 4 - 5 the most horizontal
Nothin but a SWAG here- I only tune at 1000 yds. It's the ONLY way!
Tom, Alex, Donovan, Shawn
Answer this question for me. How would you tune for 1000 yard match. When you only have 100/200 yard range?
Bart
Answer this question for me. How would you tune for 1000 yard match. When you only have 100/200 yard range?
Bart
dragman
Site $$ Sponsor
That's a personal problem lol
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