Accuracy expectations

[drover]

[QUOTE="Kevin1990, post: 39212687,

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?
[/QUOTE]

If your friend is happy with the accuracy then let it go. If it were possible to get honest admissions from most of the posters here it is likely that using a similar rifle with factory ammo that the 2 MOA figure is not an unreasonable number.
There is a world of difference between shooting 1 MOA groups off of a bench versus what can be achieved under hunting conditons.

drover

 

[Kevin1990]

2 MOA+ off the bench is the norm around here at the clubs where I belong for the once-a-year deer hunter. Here in PA, most hunting conditions are in heavily wooded areas so 2 MOA is not a fatal issue.

My father took 18 bucks with an open sight 30-30 Model 94 Winchester in the big woods of PA. He was a hunter, not a precision shooter. Shots were rarely over 100 yards.

Most rifles produced today are quite capable of 1 moa with capable ammo in the hands of an experienced shooter. I don't think that is too much to ask if one is willing to put in the time to learn how to shoot and find capable ammo. This assumes of course that the rifle and scope are free of mechanical problems. The question becomes; do I really need 1 moa for the terrain and distances that I anticipate shooting at a deer.

Most deer are wounded due to poor shot placement errors by the hunter, not the accuracy of the rifle. Conservatively, the vital on most deer is 8" or larger. If you place the shot in the vital with a quality deer hunting bullet with enough energy, the deer is going down most of the time. But there are times when a deer will run. If you hunt long enough eventually most of us will sometimes have to track a wounded deer. One needs to know some basic principles on how to track deer especially when there is no snow.

There is a big difference between shooting off the bench and shooting under field conditions. Too many hunters never move off the bench and have no idea what their true capabilities are under field conditions. The issue becomes; can the hunter hit the vital area at the distances he anticipates taking a shot under field conditions with the added excitement of the moment known as 'deer fever'.

Personally, I refrain from giving advice at the range unless asked. And when I do, I approach it cautiously unless it's a safety issue in which case, I can get very firm.

You make some very valid points, even for myself. I rarely shoot anything other than bench or prone. Next time I go to the range with or without him, im going to place myself in some field positions and see what kind of groups I get. That being said, I usually hunt from the ground, so prone shots or tripod is what im using. That being said, my father is much like yours. Once-a-year deer hunter who hunts in heavily wooded areas. He also uses a 270 win and he has been doing fine. Maybe ill see if I can interest him in letting me take the rifle and develop a load for it, or just see if everything is in working order. Might not be him at all and just the rifle.

 

[dryhumor]

One way to get a hunter motivated is to get them a deer to shoot at. Make it challenging. And eye opening. Magazines are full of pictures with different angles. Archery targets are full sized. IIRC, this one was was the package picture from a full size archery target. I just cut around and had it copied.



This is ideal for young shooters/hunters to practice on. Even old folks….

 

[K22]

You make some very valid points, even for myself. I rarely shoot anything other than bench or prone. Next time I go to the range with or without him, im going to place myself in some field positions and see what kind of groups I get. That being said, I usually hunt from the ground, so prone shots or tripod is what im using. That being said, my father is much like yours. Once-a-year deer hunter who hunts in heavily wooded areas. He also uses a 270 win and he has been doing fine. Maybe ill see if I can interest him in letting me take the rifle and develop a load for it, or just see if everything is in working order. Might not be him at all and just the rifle.

I range shoot all year around plus hunt varmints in the spring / summer, predators in the winter. I hunted deer for about 50 years but due to physical decline, I can no longer hunt them - double hernia surgery kill the ability for me dragging a deer out.

It wasn't long before I realized I needed some kind of field shooting aid, especially for varmints / predators. After trying a variety of field shooting aids, about 25 years ago I began using homemade cross sticks.

To enhance effectiveness, I began using a small, lightweight, portable hunter sportsman's chair. This gave me a stable platform, two feet flat on the ground, elbows resting on the knees. In addition, the increased elevation gave me a much wider field of view significantly increasing my shot opportunities.

While it took some time to become proficient with them, I finally mastered them. After missing a buck of a lifetime in Potter County PA about 20 years ago trying to take the shot by resting the rifle against a tree, I started using the cross sticks to hunt deer like I hunt varmints and predators. I never missed a deer after that.

Almost all my range time is spent shooting off the sticks to simulate hunting conditions. The only time I use the bench is for load development, initial scope sight in, or trying to sort out a problem. I enjoy practical shooting.

With the sticks I can hunt any terrain, deploy them in a manner of seconds, and I have a much wider field of view than shooting prone off a bipod. Ron Spomer, a TV hunting personality, uses them extensively to hunt deer. If you go on his web site there is video illustrating their use. He also has made several hunting videos using them that use to be on the Outdoor Channel.

 

[Lefty2506]

Deer is some of the most expensive meat per pound in the country…. Start figuring out all the costs involved; about the only one more expensive is a saltwater fish.

A new trigger might do wonders for his group size.

Different ammo could also help. The problem there is lot to lot variables. Unless someone is committed and understands this, and buys a case or two, the benefit may be lost.

You should try eating pheasant....

 

[Lefty2506]

On the property I hunt, there are normally 4 other hunters. One is my dad who doesn't hunt much any more. He's never been much of a target shooter and he would absolutely be happy with a 2" group on paper at 100 yds. On game animals, it's a different story. I've seen him shoot a rabbit on the run with a 22. Growing up, I didn't know that missing was even an option. On deer, however, he's never shot farther than 150 yds so 2 MOA is fine for him.

The other 3 are all family (2 brothers and the other is married to a niece), and they essentially own the property. The oldest brother can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, and he knows it. I've seen him shoot 6" groups at 50 yds. He's never shot past 100 yds on a deer.

The younger brother can do okay on paper, but can't shoot at a deer worth a crap. On live game, he's actually more accurate with his bow than he is with a gun. He knows this as well, and doesn't tend to shoot past 50 yds with a gun. That said, he wounded the biggest 8 pt I've ever seen (we have several in the Indiana state record book off this property) and it was within 10 yds of him (NOT running).

Then there's me. As I said, when I was a kid, I didn't know that missing was an option. I was a walk on to our varsity rifle team in college (#15 in the nation that year) where I was consistently the #2 shooter my freshman year. I've won championship matches in service rifle. I enjoy shooting prairie dogs at +300 yds. I've walked in off the street and won bowling pin matches with my EDC (45 Shield). I've gone 8 years without picking up a compound bow and walked into a league match to score a 298/300. It just comes natural for me. Always has. I have deer rifles that struggle to hold 1.5 MOA, but I know they are 150yd rifles and I only use them when there's NO chance to shoot past that and VERY few options to shoot past 100. Otherwise I expect my hunting rifles to shoot my hand loads close to .5 MOA. With those rifles, 150 yds is a gimme shot, and I won't think twice about shooting 300 yds or more on a deer that I want to harvest. Just depends on the circumstance and whether or not I can be certain of the distance.

We're all different. We have different levels of skill at different things. An ethical hunter knows his/her capabilities and his/her limits and stays within them in the field. For some, that may only be 50 yds. For others that may be 400 or 500.

 

[dryhumor]

Last year, a friend of mine mentioned a friend of his was looking for a .243 for his grandson. I turn keyed a ready to go M700, scope and all. Told my friend to pass along that the rifle would shoot 85 grain partitions in little clusters.

His reply, “man, they gonna go find the cheapest box of 100 grain bullets and go with it.” I asked a few weeks later how the youngster was shooting, he said pretty solid on a paper plate at 100 yards.

I reckon….

 

[Turkeytider]

The way I look at things is this...
Does an adult wish to be coddled like a 5 yr old who just drew a picture
and just be told
"Awww good job buddie, Nice horsey"
"Ummm, its a Giraffe"
"Ohhhh a Giraffe, yeah I can see that now, yeah nice Giraffe"
-----Or step into reality?
---------------------------------
When we burst someones bubble, I understand it may make us feel like an ass
but............
Which is better
Help the other person by offering honesty or
Tell them you'll hang their target on your fridge just to make them feel good.
---------------------------------
I want honest advice so I know where or how to improve
I don't need nor want to be coddled
---------------------------------
I have this friend, who was boasting of finally getting 10 inch groups at 600 yds.
And this was with a Semi-Auto 6.5 Creed that I had persoanlly done some work to for him and myself had tested it afterward and printed 5 inch groups at 600yds with it, with Factory 140's no problem.
and I was hesitant to offer but had to just say
"Ummmm, 10 inches isn't really that great bro"
only to hear back
"Well, its pretty good ........for me"
----------------------------------
"For me....huh?"
So what the heck does that mean?
Pretty good for someone who still needs to practic more
Pretty good for a beginner who only ever compares himself to himself to have no gauge what good really is?
----------------------------------
In order for a guy to know if he's any good, you have to actually compare yourself to some else who is good.
That's reality.
Everyone else in my opinion just wants to be made to feel good even if they still shoot like crap
which doesn't really accomplish the goal to help anybody
And more actually, "Enables them"
---------------------------------
So I suppose you could ask him
"Does he just want to be made to feel better, or want an honest assessment? Which will help him ?"

I’ve about decided that you have to try to not shoot a sub- MOA group with 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition, at least most any I’ve seen.

 

[SD guy]

Deer is some of the most expensive meat per pound in the country…. Start figuring out all the costs involved; about the only one more expensive is a saltwater fish.

A new trigger might do wonders for his group size.

Different ammo could also help. The problem there is lot to lot variables. Unless someone is committed and understands this, and buys a case or two, the benefit may be lost.

Weather we are talking venison, Fresh water fish, or Salt water fish, They all can be very expensive. & on the flip side they can be somewhat reasonable. really depends how you tend to approach the task at hand.

Some guys get by perfectly fine shooting less than box of shells through there 30-30 in a years time. they may be hunting just out their back door & take 2 deer per year, never considering a shot over 50 yards. In this case, a 2 MOA gun may serve a fella just fine.

Same fellas neighbor down the street may go fishing 6 times per year for walleye. though that fella is pulling a $80,000 boat with a $70,000 pickup. Don't have to have that much invested though some will.

 

[searcher]

I don't think you were out of line to mention that his rifle might be able to better with different load, etc.. I know that we all tend to take pride in whatever rifle we shoot the most and anyone coming across as knocking it down might be viewed dimly by some. That could be a bit of the reason he seemed upset with your comment. Seeing a buddy shooting 2" groups with their deer load, I'd want to offer any advice I can give to help them improve it - but all my buddies are accuracy freaks like me - so any such comments would be welcomed, just as I would welcome such. I do know of a few guys in the past that I was acquainted with that couldn't hit a pickup at 100 yards, let alone a deer. But they were also the kind of guys that didn't want to hear any comments which could be perceived as negative towards their purchase options and/or skill in using it. I test the water with folks, asking them "how small of a group are you working to get?". What they say will usually tell me whether to keep my mouth shut.

 

[mic2377]

I ve heard the paper plate rule standard come into play for those old 742s, 760s , 94s. Some of those models. Doug

My first rifle was a Rem 7400. Abysmal accuracy out of the box, and suffered from wandering zero no matter what I did. Also kicked like crazy. Paper plates @ 100 yards was all you could expect AT BEST. Caused me a complex as young man because I could hit a squirrel at 50 yards with a 22 LR, but suddenly I couldn't get anything to group.

I sold it and bought a Ruger M77 VT in 25-06, which shot amazing right out of the box. It weighed a ton but would routinely print sub-MOA groups with factory ammo. Faith restored!

I think if your friend can hit a consistent POI and maintain around 2 inches or slightly less, a gentle suggestion is more appropriate than firm insistence that his ammo and skills are not suitable for the field. The number of hunters who not only can't hit anything, but are downright unsafe, is staggering.

Shooters are not necessarily hunters, and vice versa. You are bound to get more shooters than hunters on this forum who are much more in tune with a very accurate rifle. But who knows how good they are off an improvised rest or field position. Both skills are necessary.

 

[Webster]

[QUOTE="Kevin1990, post: 39212687,

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?

If your friend is happy with the accuracy then let it go. If it were possible to get honest admissions from most of the posters here it is likely that using a similar rifle with factory ammo that the 2 MOA figure is not an unreasonable number.
There is a world of difference between shooting 1 MOA groups off of a bench versus what can be achieved under hunting conditons.

drover
[/QUOTE]
What size group do you shoot standing after walking for an hour? 1 MOA or a little better is what I see almost all factory hunting rifles shoot, when tested by good shooters in the NRA magazine.

 

[ELR LVR]

If your friend is happy with the accuracy then let it go. If it were possible to get honest admissions from most of the posters here it is likely that using a similar rifle with factory ammo that the 2 MOA figure is not an unreasonable number.
There is a world of difference between shooting 1 MOA groups off of a bench versus what can be achieved under hunting conditons.

What size group do you shoot standing after walking for an hour? 1 MOA or a little better is what I see almost all factory hunting rifles shoot, when tested by good shooters in the NRA magazine.

drover
[/QUOTE]

Your post here is a realistic assessment.
I have a friend who practices pretty regularly with open sights and old military rifles
Makes or swages his own bullets for the odd caliber sizes (.268 vs .264)
Shoots pretty regular 1 MOA with open sights at 100 yds.
It's quite impressive in my opinion given the guns he likes to use and tinker with.
Yes he has more accurate rifles but he says he likes the history of the weapons and likes to tinker
So a guy that actually spends time and effort to make his open sighted hunting rifle accurate enough for kill shots up to 150 yds, is the way to go.
Now under field conditions in the heat of the moment
I would imagine that would open up to 2 MOA at 100 yds.
I think most people would shoot the same regardless of if the rifle itself printed 1/4" on the bags.

 

[jelenko]

What size group do you shoot standing after walking for an hour? 1 MOA or a little better

Say what!? 1 moa groups from the standing position? I gotta see this.

 

[JFrank]

Say what!? 1 moa groups from the standing position? I gotta see this.

I need shooting sticks, kneel down or brace myself against a tree, otherwise I’m lucky to hit the target with my heavy trigger Marlin 336

 

[Webster]

Say what!? 1 moa groups from the standing position? I gotta see this.

I had to reread my post. The NRA test off a bench 1-1.25 is about what they get.

 

[ELR LVR]

Say what!? 1 moa groups from the standing position? I gotta see this.

Standing? yeah I wanna see 1 moa too, I don't doubt it's doable but
it takes a LOOOOT of shooting practice to do it.
Guys like Miculek

 

[ELR LVR]

I had to reread my post. The NRA test off a bench 1-1.25 is about what they get.

Off hand (Standing) or prone?
---------------------------------
Oh wait, did you say off a bench? (Still Excellent, and doesn't diminish the skill)

 

[jelenko]

Standing? yeah I wanna see 1 moa too, I don't doubt it's doable but
it takes a LOOOOT of shooting practice to do it.
Guys like Miculek

Even Miculek - at 25 yards, the shots have to be within 1/4".

 

[ELR LVR]

Even Miculek - at 25 yards, the shots have to be within 1/4".

I have split cards at 20 yds with a .22 pistol open sights
no big deal
I regularly shoot at pea gravel at that distance
So
I'm sure Miculek can shoot better than me if he can hit a balloon with a 9mm at 1000 yds