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Accuracy expectations

Kevin1990

I went to the range today with an old friend. I just brought my 223 rem and a 22lr. My friend brought his deer hunting rifle chambered in 270win that he's been using for a few years. (Factory ammo only.) At 100 yards he was getting groups that were almost 2moa, and he seemed okay with that. I mentioned that if they look like that at 100 they are probably double that at 2 or 300. Plus shooting off hand from a tree stand, I think your kinda asking for trouble. This made him a little upset, but it should be noted that he's wounded a few and never recovered them over the years.

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?
 
Kevin1990 said:
I went to the range today with an old friend. I just brought my 223 rem and a 22lr. My friend brought his deer hunting rifle chambered in 270win that he's been using for a few years. (Factory ammo only.) At 100 yards he was getting groups that were almost 2moa, and he seemed okay with that. I mentioned that if they look like that at 100 they are probably double that at 2 or 300. Plus shooting off hand from a tree stand, I think your kinda asking for trouble. This made him a little upset, but it should be noted that he's wounded a few and never recovered them over the years.

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?
Click to expand...
You're not being an ass. Most factory rifles made today will get you under 1 moa with decent ammo.
 
Kevin1990 said:
I went to the range today with an old friend. I just brought my 223 rem and a 22lr. My friend brought his deer hunting rifle chambered in 270win that he's been using for a few years. (Factory ammo only.) At 100 yards he was getting groups that were almost 2moa, and he seemed okay with that. I mentioned that if they look like that at 100 they are probably double that at 2 or 300. Plus shooting off hand from a tree stand, I think your kinda asking for trouble. This made him a little upset, but it should be noted that he's wounded a few and never recovered them over the years.

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?
Click to expand...
The way I look at things is this...
Does an adult wish to be coddled like a 5 yr old who just drew a picture
and just be told
"Awww good job buddie, Nice horsey"
"Ummm, its a Giraffe"
"Ohhhh a Giraffe, yeah I can see that now, yeah nice Giraffe"
-----Or step into reality?
---------------------------------
When we burst someones bubble, I understand it may make us feel like an ass
but............
Which is better
Help the other person by offering honesty or
Tell them you'll hang their target on your fridge just to make them feel good.
---------------------------------
I want honest advice so I know where or how to improve
I don't need nor want to be coddled
---------------------------------
I have this friend, who was boasting of finally getting 10 inch groups at 600 yds.
And this was with a Semi-Auto 6.5 Creed that I had persoanlly done some work to for him and myself had tested it afterward and printed 5 inch groups at 600yds with it, with Factory 140's no problem.
and I was hesitant to offer but had to just say
"Ummmm, 10 inches isn't really that great bro"
only to hear back
"Well, its pretty good ........for me"
----------------------------------
"For me....huh?"
So what the heck does that mean?
Pretty good for someone who still needs to practic more
Pretty good for a beginner who only ever compares himself to himself to have no gauge what good really is?
----------------------------------
In order for a guy to know if he's any good, you have to actually compare yourself to some else who is good.
That's reality.
Everyone else in my opinion just wants to be made to feel good even if they still shoot like crap
which doesn't really accomplish the goal to help anybody
And more actually, "Enables them"
---------------------------------
So I suppose you could ask him
"Does he just want to be made to feel better, or want an honest assessment? Which will help him ?"
 
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Deer is some of the most expensive meat per pound in the country…. Start figuring out all the costs involved; about the only one more expensive is a saltwater fish.

A new trigger might do wonders for his group size.

Different ammo could also help. The problem there is lot to lot variables. Unless someone is committed and understands this, and buys a case or two, the benefit may be lost.
 
People have been successfully killing deer and other creatures for centuries with guns that shoot worse than that. I disagree that most off the shelf rifles will shoot under an inch with factory ammo. I haven't bought a new rifle in many years so maybe I am wrong.

I had a Kimber 8400 that with careful handloading would not put 5 under an inch, more like 1.5". Kimber said it met their accuracy standard. I had a friend with a Remington 700 in 338 win mag, he tried all the factory ammo he could find and the best group I ever saw him shoot was probably just under 2 inches. I have a couple of Winchester model 70's from the mid 90's, not one will shoot better than about an inch and a quarter to inch and a half. Haven't lost an animal yet from either one.

Perhaps its the gun AND the shooter.
 
There's a 9" ish diameter kill zone on a whitetail, likely means buck fever or not taking a properly setup shot(gun not steady, deer moving or at an odd angle) even with a 2 moa rifle at 300 yards. Even in Europe where hunters need to qualify for a license, animals are wounded and lost. Poor shots can only be minimized, not eliminated, by practicing/experience. That's why I help at the fall deer "sight in" days.
 
I’ve mentioned my brother-in-law before in other posts. His wardrobe preference is Mossy Oak and he sees himself as a hunter. This is his identity. Ever used up 4 boxes of 308 in one season to shoot 3 deer (average distance 50 yards) and anything else that showed up while you were bored sitting in your deer blind…. Fortunately for god’s lesser creatures he usually misses.

Shooting off a bench at 100 yards he considers everything that he can cover with his hand a Bullseye?! That’s right - 6moa under perfect conditions is great day at range. It becomes a crap shoot when he gets into the field. He doesn’t like going to the range to maintain or refine his skills…”It’s boring”. Keep in mind he is a baseball coach. You would think he would understand the need for practice. Years of gentle pointers and mentoring have fallen of deaf ears.

Long and short is different strokes for different folks. Determining at what level of interest and commitment that your friend has is the challenge. He may not realize the gap in his knowledge & skill, or he may not care and unwilling to make the effort to improve…
 
Some of the old Rems semi and pumps with the bolt on barrels, the barrels "walk around" what is a 2" group at 100 yards can become 10+ inches at 200 when using scopes mounted on the receiver. Makes me wonder what the old timers thought when the open sights rifle they NEVER missed with, suddenly wasn't accurate anymore after putting a scope on it.
 
About two years ago, a business associate was planning a trip to Africa. His rifle for “plains Animals “ was a really nice Remington 7MM Mag that his kids had bought him.

On this trip, he had to bring Factory Ammunition approved by the guide. What he wanted to do was get different brands of suitable 7mm Mag ammo and see which was the most accurate in his Rifle.

I unwittingly told him that he could meet me at my Gun Club one Sunday morning and we could work it out.

He brought boxes of Federal, Remington, Norma, and Winchester, all with bullets in the 165/175 grain range.

This was no easy task. This Rifle was a regular Remington with a fixed power 8x scope that was pretty light. The recoil off the bench was not pleasant.

Surprisingly, the most accurate in this Rifle was the Remington 165/175 grain Core Lokt I managed several three shot groups at 100 that were between 3/4 and 1 1/4 inch.

He had two boxes of that, so that is what he took. That was darn good hunting accuracy, especially since the shots would probably be less than 100 yards.

By the way. I am not going to volunteer to do that again.
 
Kevin1990 said:
I went to the range today with an old friend. I just brought my 223 rem and a 22lr. My friend brought his deer hunting rifle chambered in 270win that he's been using for a few years. (Factory ammo only.) At 100 yards he was getting groups that were almost 2moa, and he seemed okay with that. I mentioned that if they look like that at 100 they are probably double that at 2 or 300. Plus shooting off hand from a tree stand, I think your kinda asking for trouble. This made him a little upset, but it should be noted that he's wounded a few and never recovered them over the years.

Am I being an ass here? I like my hunting rifles sub-moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Is that asking too much? What is your accuracy expectations for a deer hunting rifle?
Click to expand...
Minute of deer is different than minute of prairie dog. Some rifles may not shoot well with the cheapest ammo on the shelf. We do not know what rifle your friend has, scope, ammo, etc. Is the stock torqued properly? How about the bases and rings? The guy that picks up his rifle only for deer season is rarely an experienced shooter who has top tier equipment.
 
I would offer him my rifle to shoot and see what kind of groups he shoots. If at least he gets sub-moa groups, one can assume he’s at least an average shooter.
Secondly, I would focus on his rifle- scope mount, trigger, stock. I would check all the torques.
And shoot it again using handloads or premium ammo.
 
2MOA is fine if you limit yourself to 150yds and get plenty of practice.

If he has wounded deer and failed to recover them, then he needs to address his accuracy/shooting skills, improve his recovery techniques, or limit the shots that he will take to something more effective than what he is currently doing. His wounding loss is evidence that something is wrong.
 
2 MOA+ off the bench is the norm around here at the clubs where I belong for the once-a-year deer hunter. Here in PA, most hunting conditions are in heavily wooded areas so 2 MOA is not a fatal issue.

My father took 18 bucks with an open sight 30-30 Model 94 Winchester in the big woods of PA. He was a hunter, not a precision shooter. Shots were rarely over 100 yards.

Most rifles produced today are quite capable of 1 moa with capable ammo in the hands of an experienced shooter. I don't think that is too much to ask if one is willing to put in the time to learn how to shoot and find capable ammo. This assumes of course that the rifle and scope are free of mechanical problems. The question becomes; do I really need 1 moa for the terrain and distances that I anticipate shooting at a deer.

Most deer are wounded due to poor shot placement errors by the hunter, not the accuracy of the rifle. Conservatively, the vital on most deer is 8" or larger. If you place the shot in the vital with a quality deer hunting bullet with enough energy, the deer is going down most of the time. But there are times when a deer will run. If you hunt long enough eventually most of us will sometimes have to track a wounded deer. One needs to know some basic principles on how to track deer especially when there is no snow.

There is a big difference between shooting off the bench and shooting under field conditions. Too many hunters never move off the bench and have no idea what their true capabilities are under field conditions. The issue becomes; can the hunter hit the vital area at the distances he anticipates taking a shot under field conditions with the added excitement of the moment known as 'deer fever'.

Personally, I refrain from giving advice at the range unless asked. And when I do, I approach it cautiously unless it's a safety issue in which case, I can get very firm.
 
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