6.5x47 vs Creedmoor
- Thread starter Judd
- Start date
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
Im a fan of keeping things simple. Not sure what your primary us for the rifle will be. Of the 2 you listed I'd go 6.5x47. Only because I'm not a fan of hornady brass. However, I wouldn't rule out a 260. The brass is made by several different sources. It has a velocity edge over the other 2. The 130 hybrid solves the problem of loading to mag length. For most real world shooting any of the 3 will shoot plenty well if the difference between .200 vs .300 groups is going to make a difference you better get a 6dasher.
With the same bullet, same powder, same bbl length loaded to the SAME PRESSURE, the 6.5 CM will always be faster - it burns more powder. My 22" 6.5x47L with a 130 VLD cannot keep up with my 22" 6.5CM and 130 VLD when using H4350. And the same with Varget. With both powders the 6.5CM is around 60 FPS faster.
In my rifles in 6.5X47L. 6.5 Creedmoor, and 260 Rem, here are the effective water capacities of fireformed cases after seating a 123gn Scenar to the appropriate CIP/SAAMI maximum COAL:
6.5X47mm ..................... 44.5gn (Lapua)
6.5mm Creedmoor .......... 47.5gn (Norma)
.................................... 48.7gn (light Hornady)
260 Rem ....................... 48.4gn (Lapua)
That's an 8% reduction in case capacity for the '47L compared to the 260. The rule of thumb for internal ballistics calculations is to divide the percentage capacity change by four to get the percentage MV change, all others things (bullet / barrel length / peak chamber pressure) being equal.
So on a 2,800 fps or thereabouts MV, the '47L would be expected to produce around 110 fps less velocity and on a 3,000 fps load / barrel length, around 120 fps less. However, things aren't equal as the '47L is rated by the CIP at just over 63,000 psi MAP and the 260 at 60,000 psi by SAAMI. Moreover, the 260 is probably best kept to around 57-58,000 psi levels (likewise the Creedmoor) while the '47L with its small primer and very tough case-head thrives on high pressures - and some people are loading them high, like really (as in proof load pressure levels) high.
So, in reality, stiff but still sensible loads in the 6.5X47L don't see a large velocity reduction, more likely in the order of 20-30 fps and if high-energy powders are being used, that drops to around 10 fps. Many people get higher MVs from the little Finn as seen in many posts on this forum .... but if you're one of those handloaders, just think what pressures you may be running the cartridge at. Over-pressuring Creedmoor and 260 brass so that it's junked after two to four firings is a serious and expensive nuisance and a cause of derision amongst more than a few '47L fans - but it is both a safety valve and a nice obvious warning of running close to red lines. 6.54X47L doesn't do that - the first warning may also be the last you get. Also for those who believe that running at proof pressures is 'OK' as long as the brass takes it .... well, just do a search on this and other forums from posts by metallurgists and materials strength experts as to what continuous very high pressures do to steel components in actions designed to withstand a steady diet of the mid sixties psi maximum.
6.5X47mm ..................... 44.5gn (Lapua)
6.5mm Creedmoor .......... 47.5gn (Norma)
.................................... 48.7gn (light Hornady)
260 Rem ....................... 48.4gn (Lapua)
That's an 8% reduction in case capacity for the '47L compared to the 260. The rule of thumb for internal ballistics calculations is to divide the percentage capacity change by four to get the percentage MV change, all others things (bullet / barrel length / peak chamber pressure) being equal.
So on a 2,800 fps or thereabouts MV, the '47L would be expected to produce around 110 fps less velocity and on a 3,000 fps load / barrel length, around 120 fps less. However, things aren't equal as the '47L is rated by the CIP at just over 63,000 psi MAP and the 260 at 60,000 psi by SAAMI. Moreover, the 260 is probably best kept to around 57-58,000 psi levels (likewise the Creedmoor) while the '47L with its small primer and very tough case-head thrives on high pressures - and some people are loading them high, like really (as in proof load pressure levels) high.
So, in reality, stiff but still sensible loads in the 6.5X47L don't see a large velocity reduction, more likely in the order of 20-30 fps and if high-energy powders are being used, that drops to around 10 fps. Many people get higher MVs from the little Finn as seen in many posts on this forum .... but if you're one of those handloaders, just think what pressures you may be running the cartridge at. Over-pressuring Creedmoor and 260 brass so that it's junked after two to four firings is a serious and expensive nuisance and a cause of derision amongst more than a few '47L fans - but it is both a safety valve and a nice obvious warning of running close to red lines. 6.54X47L doesn't do that - the first warning may also be the last you get. Also for those who believe that running at proof pressures is 'OK' as long as the brass takes it .... well, just do a search on this and other forums from posts by metallurgists and materials strength experts as to what continuous very high pressures do to steel components in actions designed to withstand a steady diet of the mid sixties psi maximum.
Good post. I have never seen a pressure sign in a 6.5L case. I have kept loads fairly close to book max. It does seem like most "pet" loads posted or published on this site for the 6.5L exceed book max by at least a gr or two.
Other Lapua cases show pressure signs. I saw plenty with my 260. Why does this case show so few? Is it just the small primer? Does the 308 Palma case exhibit similar pressure tolerances? Likely almost all 6.5L rifles are chambered by precision gunsmiths (few headspace issues etc). Does this matter? Know of any catastrophic failures with this round?
Can someone Quickload my data to see what the estimated pressure is? I see no evidence of pressure with Wolf SRM (but I did see some with Rem BR primers). I use 40.1gr H4350 with 140gr Berger VLD or Barnes Match Burner 140. OAL is 2.790". I get 2,795 fps out of my 26" Rock Creek 5r barrel.
On my 9th loading and haven't had to trim yet. Resizing is very easy with a Hornady FL bushing die (.001" bump and .288" neck bushing).
On my 9th loading and haven't had to trim yet. Resizing is very easy with a Hornady FL bushing die (.001" bump and .288" neck bushing).
A quick and dirty QuickLOAD run says 61,119 psi .... but that's calculated to produce 2,761 fps and you're getting 2,795 so that would suggest a bit higher pressures. Adjusting the powder charge up by a half-grain to get that MV, raises PMax to a calculated 63,614 psi, some 500 above CIP Max. In this case and with a stable powder which isn't likely to shove you up vast amounts of pressure on a hot day, I'd say your load is 'hot', but not 'silly hot'.
BUT .... (the notorious 'BUT'), my faith in QuickLOAD and small 6.5s isn't very high as too often loads that should be warm but still with a few thousand psi pressure leeway blow primers in initial tests and I subsequently take rounds home to pull them and re-load at lower levels. Nowadays, I set a 54-55,000 QL result as my initial upper limit and let the target + chronograph tell me where to go from there. Maybe I'm just unlucky with 'tight' barrels, fat bullets and 'hot' powder lots in the small/medium 6.5mm trio, but I've had more bad experiences with these cartridges than everything else put together.
I don't have this problem with 6.5X55 to the same extent. I sometimes wonder if it's linked to reamers for custom chambers in 260 / Creedmoor and '47L all specified as having a 0.2645-inch internal diameter leade section, a mere half-thou above the nominal bullet diameter and with some bullets, no clearance at all!
BUT .... (the notorious 'BUT'), my faith in QuickLOAD and small 6.5s isn't very high as too often loads that should be warm but still with a few thousand psi pressure leeway blow primers in initial tests and I subsequently take rounds home to pull them and re-load at lower levels. Nowadays, I set a 54-55,000 QL result as my initial upper limit and let the target + chronograph tell me where to go from there. Maybe I'm just unlucky with 'tight' barrels, fat bullets and 'hot' powder lots in the small/medium 6.5mm trio, but I've had more bad experiences with these cartridges than everything else put together.
I don't have this problem with 6.5X55 to the same extent. I sometimes wonder if it's linked to reamers for custom chambers in 260 / Creedmoor and '47L all specified as having a 0.2645-inch internal diameter leade section, a mere half-thou above the nominal bullet diameter and with some bullets, no clearance at all!
My recent 6.5L load is 40.3gr H4350 with 130 Berger VLD's. This is .5gr above Berger max. I am not in the lands. Have 23" 8 twist barrel. Magnetospeed is giving me trouble so do not have speed. I also do not have QL as every computer I own is an Apple. As near as I can tell, Apple is not supported by QL.
Thanks, Laurie! Much appreciated. Maybe the 34fps discrepancy can be explained by Rock Creek barrels being known for higher velocities than many other makers' similar barrels?
Is it normal for x47 that resizing is so easy (doesn't take much more effort with a swipe of Imperial than resizing a lubed 9mm case) and that I've NEVER had to trim my brass? When I opened the blue Lapua box, they measured 1.843". I loaded them. Rinse. Repeat. 8 firings and 8 resizings later, they are still 1.843" with ONE solitary case being 1.845". I love this cartridge.
Is it normal for x47 that resizing is so easy (doesn't take much more effort with a swipe of Imperial than resizing a lubed 9mm case) and that I've NEVER had to trim my brass? When I opened the blue Lapua box, they measured 1.843". I loaded them. Rinse. Repeat. 8 firings and 8 resizings later, they are still 1.843" with ONE solitary case being 1.845". I love this cartridge.
Fantastic cartridge. Agree with the ease of sizing.
Judd
Gold $$ Contributor
I know, problem is up until recently that was the only gun I had that I could use for that game. BRX was getting a new pipe and other gun was at BAT getting melonite. Now I just need time to tune and play, you shooting Spanish Fort this weekend?
I'm going to try but working so much can't guarantee I'll make it. Also, I owe you a thank you! That steel was perfect.
I know this is an old thread - twice revived. But it seems to be one worth reviving one more time since Lapua announced that they will be selling 6.5 Creedmoor brass. Besides, I'm planning my first full custom build and I'm considering both these calibers; so, I'm looking for some additional input. I've heard all arguments that the 6.5x47L is more accurate than the 6.5 Creedmoor but much of the reasoning seems to have been based on the superior Lapua brass and their use of a small primer with the 47L. What I'm wondering is if the Creedmoor will come of age with the availability of this new brass? Will it eliminate the slight difference in inherent accuracy between these two nearly identical cartridges?
Since I already reload for a Creedmoor (Savage 10/110 Predator), it would be easier for me to build a Creedmoor. But I'm most concerned with accuracy. Just kind of wondering what others think about this new Lapua brass and whether it'll be a serious game changer? Will it level the field between the 47L and the Creedmoor? I really like the idea of building a rifle that COULD shoot factory ammo, in a pinch; and there are more and more factory offerings for the Creedmoor.
I'm placing my order for my Defiance action this week and I'm looking forward to playing around with some of the new Lapua Creedmoor brass during the 9 month wait for the action. Hopefully that'll help me make my decision - seeing what, if any, difference there is when loading for the Creedmoor. It's a superb shooter already and if I see a significant improvement in my accuracy with this new brass, I'll likely settle on the Creedmoor over the 47L.
Since I already reload for a Creedmoor (Savage 10/110 Predator), it would be easier for me to build a Creedmoor. But I'm most concerned with accuracy. Just kind of wondering what others think about this new Lapua brass and whether it'll be a serious game changer? Will it level the field between the 47L and the Creedmoor? I really like the idea of building a rifle that COULD shoot factory ammo, in a pinch; and there are more and more factory offerings for the Creedmoor.
I'm placing my order for my Defiance action this week and I'm looking forward to playing around with some of the new Lapua Creedmoor brass during the 9 month wait for the action. Hopefully that'll help me make my decision - seeing what, if any, difference there is when loading for the Creedmoor. It's a superb shooter already and if I see a significant improvement in my accuracy with this new brass, I'll likely settle on the Creedmoor over the 47L.
I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor with .308 Lapua Palma converted brass (small primer). It is definitely competitive with 6.5 x47L's at 600yds. I think any 'inherent' accuracy of the 6.5 x47L (debatable) is due to the Lapua brass consistency. However, I don't think you can go wrong with either 6.5...they are both great chamberings. I give the edge to the Creedmoor mainly for hunters; if one forgets or loses his loaded cartridges he can likely find an excellent factory load at a sporting goods store to salvage a hunt...or always shoot factory if one does not wish to reload.
mikegaiz
Stay frosty, my friend.
As for accuracy, I think the 6.5/47L is great.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/08/amazing-2-856-10-shot-group-at-1000-yards/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/08/amazing-2-856-10-shot-group-at-1000-yards/
I'll bet you do! Lol! Congrats on the record! My contention is that it was more about your shooting skills and your GS's skills than any inherent accuracy in the caliber. Heck, look at the group sizes you posted with the 300wsm before you got the record.
What is it, specifically, about the cartridge that you attribute the "inherent" accuracy to? Trying to learn here....and talk myself into the 47L over the Creed.
Grimstod
Machinist, Designer, and Shooter.
The 47l can seat a bullet withought going into or past the neck sholder junction and still feed from a mag. This avoides the dreded doughnut that recks accuracy.
The 47 also has case proportions that are closer to the PPC.
mikegaiz
Stay frosty, my friend.
BrushyHillGuide
Thanks for the kind praise, I think it is more the wind that pushes my bullets on target.
Thanks for the kind praise, I think it is more the wind that pushes my bullets on target.
That vertical is just ridiculous!
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