6.5 Creemoor and 6.5x47 Fake News?

[AP2020]

I'll stick with my 260AI

 

[Grimstod]

Read the articles in the US shooting press from the 70s and 80s, things like Ken Bird's superb 'Pet Loads' articles in Handloader magazine and interesting parallels about what was then already history appear. Back in the 50s and even well into the 60s, the 308 didn't sell well, and match shooters in particular pretty well hated it. Everything was wrong with the 308 (when compared to the .30-06). For a start, its neck was far too short. (This remind anyone of a criticism of the Creedmoor by a certain well known 6.5X47 Lapua fan whose forum name starts with G?)

Look at all the matches won and records set with the 30-06 and none with the 308 .... and on, and on, and on .... until one or two people started to set new records and win matches with the new cartridge. Some barrel makers, chamber reamer cutters and gunsmiths looked at the 308 and said if we tweak this bit, and tighten that bit we can do better than Winchester's factory efforts. The barrel bore / groove dimensions could do better if tightened or increased a bit ... and so on. It's called development!

Then a generation later, the US military adopted the 5.56X45mm and Remington adapted it to civilian shooting as the 223 with slightly different SAAMI specs. The triple two was a much loved design, heart of a generation's short-range benchrest competition, and a fantastically high precision design for its day. People predicted that the 223 would flop - why would anybody want an inferiors design. Inferior - for a start, the 223 case's neck is FAR too short! (You get tyhe drift?) And on, and on, and on .... until the inferior 223 wiped the 222 off the shooting map. (And actually, maybe the 222 is a superior design a 100 fps MV apart, but the 223 has again started out as a mass market cartridge and been developed into a viable 1,000 yard FTR cartridge, a feat that was long regarded as sheer fantasy. Again, it's called development!)

It's easy to say the Creedmoor is a success just because it's had money thrown at it in marketing. That's total cr*p! It's had no more money than most introductions of the last half century, and likely a lot less than Remington spent on the 260 back in the 90s, or Winchester did on the WSMs and WSSMs. It has succeeded because David Emary with some inspirational help from Dennis DeMille produced a cartridge that met a market need, did the job properly, and got two major rifle manufacturers (Savage and Ruger) in the loop helping in development and producing attractive rifles chambered for the Creedmoor to show alongside the new cartridge at SHOT 2008. It was because the trio made sure that any American gunwriter who wanted a review rifle got one and also laid on all expenses paid whitetail or hog or whatever shooting trips, It was because Hornady worked with Dave Kiff on the chamber before launch and there was both an industry standard reamer and lots of finishing reamers and chamber gauges made and ready for gunsmiths before launch day in January 2008..... because G.A.P., McMillan and the others who make tactical and XTC rifles were in the loop and onboard before launch. AND ... perhaps most of all because the concept of the available in local gunshops across the nation at affordable prices for match ammunition that'd shoot into a half to three-quarters MOA saw people able to buy good quality stuff way cheaper than frankly humdrum 308 or 260 rounds.

It wasn't marketing spend (which somehow equates this effort with lying about something or cheating in some way?) that saw a design intended solely to be a range tool have the nation's local gun dealers contact Hornady and say - Hey, we've got whitetail and muley hunters here desperate for expanding bullet ammo for this new Creedmoor cartridge very much to Hornady's surprise and pushing them into putting a couple of deerhunting loads into production at short notice.

Now, Lapua designed the 6.5X47 Lapua as an out and out match job from day one working with top Swiss 300 metre rifle maker Grunig & Elmiger, the Rolls Royce of European target rifle manufacturers. It had one job in life - to kick the 6mm BR out of 300M 3-position ISSF / CISM shooting, a really demanding discipline. XTR for masochists one could say! It (the cartridge) failed utterly in its one aim. Not because it's a poor design - far from it - but because the 6mm BR is in the round still unbeatable in this discipline. But the point is it (the 6.5X47L) was designed from day one for really top-notch precision whilst the Creedmoor was designed for fast slick shooting in XTC and general target work where a half-MOA is good enough and getting out on the range putting in trigger time gains more points than load development beyond a certain MOA value. While the 6.5X47L started life fully developed, the Creedmoor is more akin to a modern day 308 or 223. It may not get a lot better in precision terms .... or it may see years of development that inch it into one of the all time precision greats. Who knows? That's part of the fun in watching the precision shooting scene, the uncertainty of these things, the winners that come up from the backfield on the outside and the 'certs' that fall by the wayside when the race is half run.

What is certain is that Lapua was unable or unwilling to get even the Euroipean shooting industry onside, never mind the world's largest shooting market, the USA. While the Creedmoor now has almost every US rifle manufacturing firm bar Remington listing it, and in Europe Sauer, Blaser, Sabatti, Victrix, and Tikka have now adopted it, I've only managed to find two Italian specialist companies worldwide which list the 6.5X47L as a standard chambering. There are now 10 or so companies listing Creedmoor brass or ammunition with Hornady now cataloguing 11 loadings for the cartridge. Lapua makes '47L brass (and ammo that few can afford) ... and after 12 years, still nobody else has joined the company, not even the US 'Boutique' manufacturers that produce 6.5x55 and 260 Rem match / tactical ammo - Prime Ammunition (made by Norma); Hunting Shack; Cor-Bon; Applied Ballistics Muntions etc.

None of this is a criticism of Nammo Lapua or its products. I'm a great fan of the company, its engineers, and its products whether Lapua or Vihtavuori. You can see though why Nammo has bought Berger Bullets and why the future will likely see a major US partnership and joint manufacturing enterprise located in the USA. The Creedmoor v 6.5X47L saga shows Lapua at a huge disadvantage against US based competitors in getting close enough to the world's richest recreational shooting market to be a leader there, not a follower.

Finally, Hornady and its Creedmoor cartridge has had an enormous piece of plain good luck in the rise and rise of the affordable 'Blacktical rifle'. I now count no fewer than nine new Blacktical rifles (including the original Ruger PR) every one of which is offered in Creedmoor chambering. Nobody back in 2008 would have predicted this would be the next rifle shooting gold rush and it has probably benefited the Creedmoor more than any other cartridge - not just in the sales of ammo and brass for people's brand new shooting sticks, but in the publicity in magazines, Snipers Hide, Accurate Shooter, Facebook and other modern media.

Laurie I was re-reading this today and it is a very insightful and well thought out comment. You have captured many aspects of what is happening in the market and why things are as they are.

 

[muleystalker]

At the end of 2017 Shooting season the winner will be? How we going to call this Group, score, or number of matches won. This could get interesting. I had a 6.5-284 back in 2006 that I would have put up against most rifles, but the barrel went south the next year. That's the only thing I have against 6.mm and 6.5 they don't go 3000 rounds like the 30 cal's!

Joe Salt

6mm Competition Match will go 3000+

 

[Rob01]

Not in PRS match shooting they don't. At least my two team mate's didn't.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

I am actually looking at 6.5 creed vs Lapua for me and my friends rifle right now.
I was playing with quickload and also seating depths.
Looking at using 140 berger hybrids. Setting the OAL length at 2.85 seems the creedmoor has to have the bullet seated past the neck junction to fit in the magazine. Lapua has a longer neck and more space to play with distance off the lands and you dont have to worry about a doughnut hitting the bullet?
Do you really have to worry about doughnuts in either case ?

 

[rardoin]

I am actually looking at 6.5 creed vs Lapua for me and my friends rifle right now.

Looking at using 140 berger hybrids. Setting the OAL length at 2.85 seems the creedmoor has to have the bullet seated past the neck junction to fit in the magazine.

That depends on the freebore.

 

[CdnHotshot]

I shot a factory T3 260REM for two years and sold it to build a DEFIANCE sporter 6.5x47L
Well, the T3 shot as good as this DEFIANCE 6.5x47
The T3 action was a smoother action and the 260Rem cartridge was accurate and easy to build loads.
I'm a fan of short overall length calibres hence the 6.5x47L and am in too deep with this Defiance to look backwards.

 

[sbhooper]

I like my .260 just fine and I have a nearly unlimited supply of Hornady Match .308 brass. It is a 1/2 moa rifle with all loads that I have put through it up to and including the ELD-M @ 2724fps. The creed is fine, but no special deal to me.

 

[nakneker]

The 6.5x47 gives up a little boiler room to the Creedmoor but is it enough to base a decision on? Watching this thread is like watching poeple debate Ford and Chevy over a deer camp fire. Very entertaining but I really don't see a big enough difference between the two. Personally I have a Definace 6.5x47L, it's one of my favorites. Also, I've been thinking about building a Creedmoor just because. Then I rethink that and wonder why I would do that when I have all of the dies and brass for the Lapua. It's like there's a war for your mind, Lol.

 

[Downhill]

Guys,guys,guys- there is not two shits difference between the 6.5 creedmoor,6.5 lapua or the 260 remington. It is all mental. Run what you are the most confident with. All three are capable of stellar accuracy. The gun crowd is worse than eighth grade girls fawning over the next new hottest designer jeans. Don't follow anyone over a cliff. Pick one -learn how to shoot it - strive to be consistent with it and turn a deaf ear to those who say their cartridge is more accurate than yours. It is all about SHOOTING! Don't get caught up in the B.S! By the way if your not running a 260 your wasting your time!!!!!!!

 

[rgc54]

This world we play in is all about experimenting. If we don't encourage the experiment we would still be shooting black powder. Or worse yet spears.

Go with the herd if you like not a lot of thought involved. I like the new and "I think I will try another way" this is the American way of life.. the great winning cartridges of today we're yesterday's experiments.

 

[MrMajestic]

It's the same deal with the .20 Practical and the .20 Tactical. The .20P isn't much different than the .20T but since it's got the Tactical moniker, in the eyes of the fanboys, that makes it a better cartridge (which we can debate until the cows come home). While I'm at it, TACTICAL is so overused as to have lost any meaning whatsoever but it still sells more useless, non descript, generic, non essential accessories probably than any other word in the firearms industry. Tactical flashlight anyone? Me? I'm in the market for a TACTICAL nose hair clipper.

Hey, I love my tactical lunch pail!

 

[wedgy]

Is it Creed more, or Creedless ?

 

[alintx]

Heck I've had to start calling my 260 a 6.5 Remington just to be able to hang out with the creedmoor guys at the club. It 'all just marketing. They all have the potential to be extremely accurate. The Creedmoor have just had a larger ad campaign behind them.

Jim carmichael called it the 6.5 panther when he developed it. They should have stuck with that! The 6.5br was called the Bob cat.

 

[Grimstod]

Jim carmichael called it the 6.5 panther when he developed it. They should have stuck with that! The 6.5br was called the Bob cat.

Its amazing how a name can make or brake a cartridge.

 

[alintx]

Its amazing how a name can make or brake a cartridge.

Now, if he would have just called it the 260 panther tacticle,,,,,,,,

 

[Downhill]

260 Panther Tactical. Hmmmmmm. Sounds interesting. Guys this probably this first thread that I have looked forward to checking everyday.

 

[Laurie]

'Panther Tactical'? Back then (1980s) the word 'tactical' was pretty meaningless to most recreational shooters, and might even have produced negative connotations.

The 'in' US discipline of that era was Metallic Sihouettes and .308 Win based wildcats in 6.5 and 7mm that eventually became the 260 and 7mm-08 Remington factory numbers proved to be winners. If Remington had developed the 260 properly and promoted it against a competition, later long-range shooting backdrop instead of apparently viewing and marketing it entirely as a low recoil small deer cartridge, there probably wouldn't be a Hornady Creedmoor competitor today.

The beauty of the smaller 6.5s is their inherent ballistic and precision versatility allied to very good manners, but it seems large manufacturers were unable to think beyond a preoccupation with the .30-06 Springfield, then .308 Win as the 'only' competition options available. David Tubb first came to prominence as a champion Silhouettes competitor and his experiences in that discipline no doubt influenced his later thinking such that he done so much to break the thirty calibre 'mindset', albeit better known for his 6mm innovations.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

I think that 6.5CM would still be here. With the tread for heavy bullets and people using detachable magazines 6.5lap and 6.5CM are a great fit, 260 is better suited for long action if you are going to make use of all that case capacity.