6.5 Creemoor and 6.5x47 Fake News?

[amlevin]

I've been shooting for over 60 years and one thing I learned a long time ago is that shooters are extremely set in their ways. When a new cartridge comes along will rarely change from what they've been using. That new caliber will always be criticized by those shooting something else --------- until they start getting the pants beat off them in matches. Considering the age of the 6.5 Creedmoor, compared to other similar cartridges, just give it time. It will ether become dominant-----or it will join the lengthening list of "other cartridges".

 

[dsbw]

The 6.5 Creedmoor was born when the Hornady bunch stayed beside the Creedmoor bunch at a time share/condomium about 10 minutes from Camp Perry. Year was about 2004 (I might off a year). The 6XC was out and doing well. Creedmoor was selling T2K's and Dennis was shooting one of them. I don't remember if I spoke to Dennis about the 6.5 testing using the XC case but I know others who were around knew of the testing. When designing the XC I also paid attention to the (possible use of a 6.5 XC) 142 gr 6.5 Sierra's seating depth so as to perform well out of the 2.8" magazine box.
When it was all said and done I picked the 6mm as the best pick and have not ever looked back. The XC case and the Creedmoor case are very close in design. The problem was at that time the Hornady brass was less than desirable.

IMO the case capacity of the 260 Remington is a much better choice for getting the 6.5 to the velocity levels that I would be happy with.
The Creedmoor enjoys the marketing of Hornady which has led to it success. It just goes to show that the best ideas don't always rise to the top.

 

[dsbw]

Insightful reply!

 

[dsbw]

Read the articles in the US shooting press from the 70s and 80s, things like Ken Bird's superb 'Pet Loads' articles in Handloader magazine and interesting parallels about what was then already history appear. Back in the 50s and even well into the 60s, the 308 didn't sell well, and match shooters in particular pretty well hated it. Everything was wrong with the 308 (when compared to the .30-06). For a start, its neck was far too short. (This remind anyone of a criticism of the Creedmoor by a certain well known 6.5X47 Lapua fan whose forum name starts with G?)

Look at all the matches won and records set with the 30-06 and none with the 308 .... and on, and on, and on .... until one or two people started to set new records and win matches with the new cartridge. Some barrel makers, chamber reamer cutters and gunsmiths looked at the 308 and said if we tweak this bit, and tighten that bit we can do better than Winchester's factory efforts. The barrel bore / groove dimensions could do better if tightened or increased a bit ... and so on. It's called development!

Then a generation later, the US military adopted the 5.56X45mm and Remington adapted it to civilian shooting as the 223 with slightly different SAAMI specs. The triple two was a much loved design, heart of a generation's short-range benchrest competition, and a fantastically high precision design for its day. People predicted that the 223 would flop - why would anybody want an inferiors design. Inferior - for a start, the 223 case's neck is FAR too short! (You get tyhe drift?) And on, and on, and on .... until the inferior 223 wiped the 222 off the shooting map. (And actually, maybe the 222 is a superior design a 100 fps MV apart, but the 223 has again started out as a mass market cartridge and been developed into a viable 1,000 yard FTR cartridge, a feat that was long regarded as sheer fantasy. Again, it's called development!)

It's easy to say the Creedmoor is a success just because it's had money thrown at it in marketing. That's total cr*p! It's had no more money than most introductions of the last half century, and likely a lot less than Remington spent on the 260 back in the 90s, or Winchester did on the WSMs and WSSMs. It has succeeded because David Emary with some inspirational help from Dennis DeMille produced a cartridge that met a market need, did the job properly, and got two major rifle manufacturers (Savage and Ruger) in the loop helping in development and producing attractive rifles chambered for the Creedmoor to show alongside the new cartridge at SHOT 2008. It was because the trio made sure that any American gunwriter who wanted a review rifle got one and also laid on all expenses paid whitetail or hog or whatever shooting trips, It was because Hornady worked with Dave Kiff on the chamber before launch and there was both an industry standard reamer and lots of finishing reamers and chamber gauges made and ready for gunsmiths before launch day in January 2008..... because G.A.P., McMillan and the others who make tactical and XTC rifles were in the loop and onboard before launch. AND ... perhaps most of all because the concept of the available in local gunshops across the nation at affordable prices for match ammunition that'd shoot into a half to three-quarters MOA saw people able to buy good quality stuff way cheaper than frankly humdrum 308 or 260 rounds.

It wasn't marketing spend (which somehow equates this effort with lying about something or cheating in some way?) that saw a design intended solely to be a range tool have the nation's local gun dealers contact Hornady and say - Hey, we've got whitetail and muley hunters here desperate for expanding bullet ammo for this new Creedmoor cartridge very much to Hornady's surprise and pushing them into putting a couple of deerhunting loads into production at short notice.

Now, Lapua designed the 6.5X47 Lapua as an out and out match job from day one working with top Swiss 300 metre rifle maker Grunig & Elmiger, the Rolls Royce of European target rifle manufacturers. It had one job in life - to kick the 6mm BR out of 300M 3-position ISSF / CISM shooting, a really demanding discipline. XTR for masochists one could say! It (the cartridge) failed utterly in its one aim. Not because it's a poor design - far from it - but because the 6mm BR is in the round still unbeatable in this discipline. But the point is it (the 6.5X47L) was designed from day one for really top-notch precision whilst the Creedmoor was designed for fast slick shooting in XTC and general target work where a half-MOA is good enough and getting out on the range putting in trigger time gains more points than load development beyond a certain MOA value. While the 6.5X47L started life fully developed, the Creedmoor is more akin to a modern day 308 or 223. It may not get a lot better in precision terms .... or it may see years of development that inch it into one of the all time precision greats. Who knows? That's part of the fun in watching the precision shooting scene, the uncertainty of these things, the winners that come up from the backfield on the outside and the 'certs' that fall by the wayside when the race is half run.

What is certain is that Lapua was unable or unwilling to get even the Euroipean shooting industry onside, never mind the world's largest shooting market, the USA. While the Creedmoor now has almost every US rifle manufacturing firm bar Remington listing it, and in Europe Sauer, Blaser, Sabatti, Victrix, and Tikka have now adopted it, I've only managed to find two Italian specialist companies worldwide which list the 6.5X47L as a standard chambering. There are now 10 or so companies listing Creedmoor brass or ammunition with Hornady now cataloguing 11 loadings for the cartridge. Lapua makes '47L brass (and ammo that few can afford) ... and after 12 years, still nobody else has joined the company, not even the US 'Boutique' manufacturers that produce 6.5x55 and 260 Rem match / tactical ammo - Prime Ammunition (made by Norma); Hunting Shack; Cor-Bon; Applied Ballistics Muntions etc.

None of this is a criticism of Nammo Lapua or its products. I'm a great fan of the company, its engineers, and its products whether Lapua or Vihtavuori. You can see though why Nammo has bought Berger Bullets and why the future will likely see a major US partnership and joint manufacturing enterprise located in the USA. The Creedmoor v 6.5X47L saga shows Lapua at a huge disadvantage against US based competitors in getting close enough to the world's richest recreational shooting market to be a leader there, not a follower.

Finally, Hornady and its Creedmoor cartridge has had an enormous piece of plain good luck in the rise and rise of the affordable 'Blacktical rifle'. I now count no fewer than nine new Blacktical rifles (including the original Ruger PR) every one of which is offered in Creedmoor chambering. Nobody back in 2008 would have predicted this would be the next rifle shooting gold rush and it has probably benefited the Creedmoor more than any other cartridge - not just in the sales of ammo and brass for people's brand new shooting sticks, but in the publicity in magazines, Snipers Hide, Accurate Shooter, Facebook and other modern media.

 

[dsbw]

Thank you Laurie, constructive intelligent contribution.

 

[Dave L Kiff]

This is so sad. The 6.5x47 and 6-6.5x47 was clearly the winning cartridge yet all they can talk about is Creedmoor this and Creedmoor that. Why is there so much bias to the Creedmoor? It has yet to set a single world record in any Bench or F-Class category that I know of. Yet its the darling baby of the media.

You can see here that the 6.5Creed did not even place in the top 10!

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/...s-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/#comment-56925

 

[Dave L Kiff]

Hello Grimstod, Would you please give me a call ? Monday because today and tomorrow I m Grinding Chamber Reamers and don't have the time but this thread is out of the funny papers... I have been Machining and making reamers since I Hitchhiked back from Vietnam era . I worked for the likes of Red Elliot, Parker Ackely and then Keith Francis @ JGS for years Until I started Pacific Tool and Gauge back in 1993 . I have made Reamers all the best 100 then and still do, My Reamers thru my customers hard work who really make it happen anyway, hold more World Records and have won more matches than all the other manufactures put together X 10. Some of my Gunsmith Customers have over 23 Standing World Records around the World That may never be broken, Hell the names go from Able, Amick, Borden, Boyer, Bucky's,Bruno, Palmisano, Pindel Thru Rasmussen, Scott, Spencer, Tubb, Tompkins, Thru Whidden . That doesn't include Chris Kyle and 50,000 new Smiths and Shooters, I live and breath Winning . Call me so I can give you some correct Statistics . Thanks Dave Kiff

 

[Grimstod]

Hello Grimstod, Would you please give me a call ? Monday because today and tomorrow I m Grinding Chamber Reamers and don't have the time but this thread is out of the funny papers... I have been Machining and making reamers since I Hitchhiked back from Vietnam era . I worked for the likes of Red Elliot, Parker Ackely and then Keith Francis @ JGS for years Until I started Pacific Tool and Gauge back in 1993 . I have made Reamers all the best 100 then and still do, My Reamers thru my customers hard work who really make it happen anyway, hold more World Records and have won more matches than all the other manufactures put together X 10. Some of my Gunsmith Customers have over 23 Standing World Records around the World That may never be broken, Hell the names go from Able, Amick, Borden, Boyer, Bucky's,Bruno, Palmisano, Pindel Thru Rasmussen, Scott, Spencer, Tubb, Tompkins, Thru Whidden . That doesn't include Chris Kyle and 50,000 new Smiths and Shooters, I live and breath Winning . Call me so I can give you some correct Statistics . Thanks Dave Kiff

I sent you a PM Dave.

 

[Dave L Kiff]

I sent you a PM Dave.

I am not at my shop now, I will email you tomorrow PM , I developed the 30 TC, 6mm TC and 6.5X30 TC now called the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor for Thompson/Center .They only produced the 30 TC then sold to Smith and Wesson . Smith an Wesson had no use for it . I made the first 6mmX47 Swiss Match and the 6.5 Lapua years ago for European and American competitors, Hell I took Mic McPherson 30X47 HBR print and made 6X47 HBR and the 6.5X 47 HBR That is why you can headspace a newer 6.5X47 Lapua with a 1983 30X47 Gauge made by me. I have created 12 of the last 14 most polar cartridges . I have a lot of history to tell you my friend, thank you . Dave Kiff PTG dave@kifftool.cm

 

[Dave L Kiff]

I am not at my shop now, I will email you tomorrow PM , I developed the 30 TC, 6mm TC and 6.5X30 TC now called the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6mm Creedmoor for Thompson/Center .They only produced the 30 TC then sold to Smith and Wesson . Smith an Wesson had no use for it . I made the first 6mmX47 Swiss Match and the 6.5 Lapua years ago for European and American competitors, Hell I took Mic McPherson 30X47 HBR print and made 6X47 HBR and the 6.5X 47 HBR That is why you can headspace a newer 6.5X47 Lapua with a 1983 30X47 Gauge made by me. I have created 12 of the last 14 most polar cartridges . I have a lot of history to tell you my friend, thank you . Dave Kiff PTG dave@kifftool.cm

oh ya, Bernosky, Demilles, Murdica, Wheeler, Cortina should have been on my list , I know better I'm getting $hit from all my customers now because I forgot to mention other names on that first post . Sometimes it hard to read the crap on these threads and not say something . Good night

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I like the creedmoor case. It fits a box better than a 260 and will give a little more velocity than a 47L. Unless you are shooting a benchrest rifle and know how to load and ready flags your not shooting the difference. Small rifle primers are plenty in this case. They are plenty in larger cases tested for accuracy at 1k. Claims of accuracy based on ideas of what an accurate case should be vs actual real world testing is not fair. Saying it has a large accuracy disadvantage without thorough testing is ridiculous. You may be right, but without testing this I wont go along with it. In the 6mm theres a limit. Its about the size of the dasher. I have never seen a case larger than a dasher shoot as well in benchrest. 6x47L is an example, its been tried....
In any discussion about accuracy we should define what accuracy is. What are we talking about? .5 moa? .1moa? Big difference in what is required in prs, xc, sling, F-class, and Benchrest.

 

[Geno C]

I'm a 260 guy. Have been since I started shooting long range. The only way I'll switch would be if I couldn't find brass, and that almost happened. I recently moved to the 260ai for a little more speed, looking for consistent 2950-3050. The creed won't get me there any more than the 260 could.

The reasons I see the creed being so popular are 3 things; catchy name, factory loaded ammo, and factory guns chambered in it. If the 260 or 6.5-47 had the last 2 of those 3 things it would be becoming more popular. However, they don't so they wont... just the way it is

The creedmore is a fine cartridge. It's the market support that has made it out grow the others like it in my opinion

 

[smokinghole]

When I was looking to rebarrel my savage I was trying to decide on .260 Rem, 6.5x47L, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6.5 Super LR. Ultimately I went with Creedmoor because a very affordable barrel went up for sale, Lapua was coming out with brass, and non-custom dies were available. I have a reload only cartridge already, 6.5brx in an AR, so that isn't a huge issue to me. In the end I like that I can locally acquire brass at handful of places nearby. There are no reloading supply shops near me that stock any Lapua brass. I can pick up creedmoor as unloaded brass or loaded ammo at Bass Pro (5 min away) and a number of other shops I purchase through. If I didn't go Creedmoor I was probably going to hit up the SLR chamber because .243 brass is plentiful basically everywhere. I use this gun for screwing around at the range and will hike with it while hoping to find animals to kill. I call it hiking unless I kill something, then it was hunting. Anyhow, I'm sure any of the short action 6.5s are capable of shooting better than my fidgety skills.

I'm a 6.5mm fan though. I have a grendel(AR), the BRX(AR), and now Creedmoor(bolt). I see a long action version in my near future too, just not anytime soon.

 

[Joe Salt]

At the end of 2017 Shooting season the winner will be? How we going to call this Group, score, or number of matches won. This could get interesting. I had a 6.5-284 back in 2006 that I would have put up against most rifles, but the barrel went south the next year. That's the only thing I have against 6.mm and 6.5 they don't go 3000 rounds like the 30 cal's!

Joe Salt

 

[Gman]

At the end of 2017 Shooting season the winner will be? How we going to call this Group, score, or number of matches won. This could get interesting. I had a 6.5-284 back in 2006 that I would have put up against most rifles, but the barrel went south the next year. That's the only thing I have against 6.mm and 6.5 they don't go 3000 rounds like the 30 cal's!

Joe Salt

Very true about the 30 cals, but the 6mm's don't beat the snot out of your shoulder either !

 

[DHuffman]

Very true about the 30 cals, but the 6mm's don't beat the snot out of your shoulder either !

Very true!!!

I have 2-6.5 Creedmoors and 2-6.5 Lapuas and I'll be the first to admit there are many people on this board much more accomplished shooters than myself. The only competing I do is with myself. I can however pull off the rare group in the .0's but most of the time I'm in the mid .2 to low .4 area and once I get any of these rifles/loads dialed in I can't say ones more accurate than the other.

The 6.5 Lapua may be slightly easier to tune than the Creedmoor but pretty marginal.

I also have 2-6x47 Lapuas that based on my experience are not as accurate and definitely harder to tune than either of the above 6.5s

Like Alex Wheeler said above, define accuracy. Again just my experience!

Here's a pic from my homemade 6.5 Creedmoor from this afternoon, 18* light quartering wind. My bench is a plastic Walmart table and chair and my bags are of the green Caldwell variety. For me it all works! LOL

 

[goneshootinginAZ]

Here's a pic from my homemade 6.5 Creedmoor from this afternoon, 18* light quartering wind. My bench is a plastic Walmart table and chair and my bags are of the green Caldwell variety. For me it all works! LOL[/QUOTE]

That is certainly fine shooting, especially considering your setup!!!!
Thanks for sharing!

 

[joshb]

It's the same deal with the .20 Practical and the .20 Tactical. The .20P isn't much different than the .20T but since it's got the Tactical moniker, in the eyes of the fanboys, that makes it a better cartridge (which we can debate until the cows come home). While I'm at it, TACTICAL is so overused as to have lost any meaning whatsoever but it still sells more useless, non descript, generic, non essential accessories probably than any other word in the firearms industry. Tactical flashlight anyone? Me? I'm in the market for a TACTICAL nose hair clipper.

I'm not so sure you should bash the cool names, Dale. AKA "Hogpatrol"

 

[Bemoni]

The .260 Rem is my absolute favorite, next to the more-than-a-century-old 6,5 x 55
But, that said, here yesterday i had the opportunity to try a brand-new Tikka in 6,5cm, with factory ammo and it shot 0,7 groups right away, and in my wiev, that's OK.
The whole 6,5 story, in the US market, is quite amazing to wiev, here from Denmark, as we always has known that the 6,5 has an inherent potentional for accuracy, no matter what case you are putting it in.
My local gunsmith tried, just for the fun of it, to make a 6,5 Norma BR and made a rifle with an extremely short action and loaded it with a 120 grain Scenar and it was able to do 0,5 groups on 300 meter.
I think, what's really matters, is what purpose you intend to use it for, the CM and 260 are OK for both bolt and gas guns, but 6,5x47L was never intended for that use and are best suited for a bolt.
The rest is pure religion.

Btw: Please bear with me, if there should be some typos and grammatics, i'm not that used to write in english

 

[joshb]

Welcome to the forum, Bemoni!! It's nice to hear from our friends across the the ocean. Your English is fantastic! Please keep your thoughts coming. It's nice to have some foreign input! Great first post! I have 2 old Swedish Mauser's in 6.5-55. The short rifle is one of my favorite rifles.

Josh