300 Norma Improved

[Capt. Oblivious]

Guys where would be a safe place to start with N570 and 225 elds with the 300nm improved?

 

[rhovee]

85 grains

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Thanks

 

[demonjigger]

Good info. Tagging in.

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

Savage is not worthy of the 300 NM

Ouch! I’m learning a lot reading this thread. I have a Savage 338 LM that doesn’t shoot well, and I was considering buying a 300 NM pre-fit barrel for it. Only 6-1/2 more pages to read, looking forward to learning if anyone has tried this. The 300 NMI does sound interesting.

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

Check out this lightweight 300 Norma improved I just finished for a customer in Iowa. It has Manners new lightweight adjustable cheek piece. Only adds 1.8 oz. Saves 18 oz over standard cheek piece. Rifle with optics weighs 10.0 lbs.

The rifle has a:
Lone Peak titanium Fuzion w timed ignition
Manners eh1 w new cheek piece
Proof Research barrel
Self timing 5 port “Muscle” brake w 3/4x24 threads,
Huber trigger,
Apa bottom metal w 3 round 3.850 accurate mag
Nightforce nxs bedded into a set of Nf rings.

Looks great. Only 10 lbs with optics, sounds painful no matter what brake, hopefully it’s mainly for hunting.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Ouch! I’m learning a lot reading this thread. I have a Savage 338 LM that doesn’t shoot well, and I was considering buying a 300 NM pre-fit barrel for it. Only 6-1/2 more pages to read, looking forward to learning if anyone has tried this. The 300 NMI does sound interesting.

- I would take the "Savage is not worthy of the 300 NM" comment with a grain of salt unless that there is actual real-world experience from the person with the Savage Model 112 Magnum Target action testifying. - I'm NOT claiming the model 112 to be as precise as a full-out custom action, but the one I have which has had some work done to it is a very formable action for the 338 Lapua Imp. that it is providing service for and it posted decent results at E2K (2000 yard group & score) competition. - And I can't see any reason why a decent rifle can't be done in 300 Norma Mag. Imp. or the standard 300 Norma Magnum cartridge. - I haven't converted the one I own to 300 Norma Mag. Imp. but I did to 338 Lapua Imp. - IF, I had everything to do all over again I would have went with a custom action, (A BAT model CT would have been my first choice with the model "M" & model "HR" being close seconds). There are a few other "worthy" choices as well regarding custom actions to provide service for a .590 dia. case head sized cartridge. (Kelbly's, Defiance Machine & Stiller).

Good Luck & Good Shooting - Ron -

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

Great thread to find when interested in getting started with a 300 NM. Lots of comments questions for @rpierce , @Ledd Slinger , @Alex Wheeler , or anybody else.

What is the shoulder angle on 300 NM? Visually looks like around 20-22 deg, but I haven’t seen a drawing. I just thought it was interesting that the shoulder angles for the 300 NMI are in the low- to mid-thirties when a lot of the smaller diameter improved cartridges seem to have a little higher angles.

With people trying several different new shoulder angles, how to choose? I saw PT&G sells a reamer “30 Norma 33 Imp”, which sounds like almost the same thing as some of the others mentioned in this thread.

@Ledd Slinger, can you explain a little more what you meant about how you made your custom seater die? I’m a little too new to understand what you meant.

@Anybody , how much extra does it generally cost to get someone to make you a FL sizing die? Do you do that by sending them a drawing or some fireformed brass or maybe both?

Dang this thread was so fun to read I’m missing some good rivalry football games. I won’t mention any specific teams though, since were not supposed to talk politics.

Thanks again for the great info, and belated Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Great thread to find when interested in getting started with a 300 NM. Lots of comments questions for @rpierce , @Ledd Slinger , @Alex Wheeler , or anybody else.

What is the shoulder angle on 300 NM? Visually looks like around 20-22 deg, but I haven’t seen a drawing. I just thought it was interesting that the shoulder angles for the 300 NMI are in the low- to mid-thirties when a lot of the smaller diameter improved cartridges seem to have a little higher angles.

With people trying several different new shoulder angles, how to choose? I saw PT&G sells a reamer “30 Norma 33 Imp”, which sounds like almost the same thing as some of the others mentioned in this thread.

@Ledd Slinger, can you explain a little more what you meant about how you made your custom seater die? I’m a little too new to understand what you meant.

@Anybody , how much extra does it generally cost to get someone to make you a FL sizing die? Do you do that by sending them a drawing or some fireformed brass or maybe both?

Dang this thread was so fun to read I’m missing some good rivalry football games. I won’t mention any specific teams though, since were not supposed to talk politics.

Thanks again for the great info, and belated Happy Thanksgiving.

The Standard 300 Norma Magnum has a 20.5 degree (20 degree's 30 minutes) shoulder angle. - There are a bunch of "improved" designs out that have 35 & 40 degree shoulders. - The version that I have has a 40 degree shoulder and the body taper is also reduced. - I wouldn't say that one version is any better than another (35 degree versus a 40 degree). - A "custom" seater die can be made by having your gunsmith chamber a Wilson Straight-Line Bullet Seater Blank with your chambering reamer and you can add a VLD bullet seater stem to it if you want. - It will produce very straight loaded rounds. Or you could have a custom die maker build you a seater die (i.e. Whidden Gunworks) - When I have a rifle barrel chambered, I provide a Wilson die blank (cost is approx. $45.00) and have it chambered when the gunsmith is doing my barrel(s). - They usually charge from 80-120 dollars to do one. A Full-length Sizer die for an improved can be had by sending 3 or 4 pieces of fired (2 to 4 times) brass to Whiddens Gunworks along with a copy of your chamber print. - They (Whiddens Gunworks) do an excellent job (IMO) of making custom die sets for reloading wildcat & custom chamber spec'd rifles.

- Ron -

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

The Standard 300 Norma Magnum has a 20.5 degree (20 degree's 30 minutes) shoulder angle. - There are a bunch of "improved" designs out that have 35 & 40 degree shoulders. - The version that I have has a 40 degree shoulder and the body taper is also reduced. - I wouldn't say that one version is any better than another (35 degree versus a 40 degree). - A "custom" seater die can be made by having your gunsmith chamber a Wilson Straight-Line Bullet Seater Blank with your chambering reamer and you can add a VLD bullet seater stem to it if you want. - It will produce very straight loaded rounds. Or you could have a custom die maker build you a seater die (i.e. Whidden Gunworks) - When I have a rifle barrel chambered, I provide a Wilson die blank (cost is approx. $45.00) and have it chambered when the gunsmith is doing my barrel(s). - They usually charge from 80-120 dollars to do one. A Full-length Sizer die for an improved can be had by sending 3 or 4 pieces of fired (2 to 4 times) brass to Whiddens Gunworks along with a copy of your chamber print. - They (Whiddens Gunworks) do an excellent job (IMO) of making custom die sets for reloading wildcat & custom chamber spec'd rifles.

- Ron -

Thanks Ron, I get it now about the die, sounds like a great idea.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Great thread to find when interested in getting started with a 300 NM. Lots of comments questions for @rpierce , @Ledd Slinger , @Alex Wheeler , or anybody else.

What is the shoulder angle on 300 NM? Visually looks like around 20-22 deg, but I haven’t seen a drawing. I just thought it was interesting that the shoulder angles for the 300 NMI are in the low- to mid-thirties when a lot of the smaller diameter improved cartridges seem to have a little higher angles.

With people trying several different new shoulder angles, how to choose? I saw PT&G sells a reamer “30 Norma 33 Imp”, which sounds like almost the same thing as some of the others mentioned in this thread.

@Ledd Slinger, can you explain a little more what you meant about how you made your custom seater die? I’m a little too new to understand what you meant.

@Anybody , how much extra does it generally cost to get someone to make you a FL sizing die? Do you do that by sending them a drawing or some fireformed brass or maybe both?

Dang this thread was so fun to read I’m missing some good rivalry football games. I won’t mention any specific teams though, since were not supposed to talk politics.

Thanks again for the great info, and belated Happy Thanksgiving.

The 300 Norma shoulder angle is 20.5 degrees. Most likely designed to feed well in machine guns. The standard case is a good one, but you will be trimming your cases often. I went with 35 degrees on my reamer to get the benefits of reduced case growth and still have good feeding, not that I think a 40 wouldnt feed well, but a lot of guys do have that in their heads. These feed like butter in a center feed wyatt's box. As good as a Tikka. Anything from 30-40 degrees will work well, you will not see any accuracy difference between them. The steeper angles will hide pressure more and will grow less. Most of us that are building these can supply you with dies, or you can send fired brass out for a custom made die from some one like Whidden. My die sets are $220. The 300 norma improved has become my favorite of the big 30's, but I still love the 30 and 30-28 noslers.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Great thread to find when interested in getting started with a 300 NM. Lots of comments questions for @rpierce , @Ledd Slinger , @Alex Wheeler , or anybody else.

What is the shoulder angle on 300 NM? Visually looks like around 20-22 deg, but I haven’t seen a drawing. I just thought it was interesting that the shoulder angles for the 300 NMI are in the low- to mid-thirties when a lot of the smaller diameter improved cartridges seem to have a little higher angles.

With people trying several different new shoulder angles, how to choose? I saw PT&G sells a reamer “30 Norma 33 Imp”, which sounds like almost the same thing as some of the others mentioned in this thread.

@Ledd Slinger, can you explain a little more what you meant about how you made your custom seater die? I’m a little too new to understand what you meant.

@Anybody , how much extra does it generally cost to get someone to make you a FL sizing die? Do you do that by sending them a drawing or some fireformed brass or maybe both?

Dang this thread was so fun to read I’m missing some good rivalry football games. I won’t mention any specific teams though, since were not supposed to talk politics.

Thanks again for the great info, and belated Happy Thanksgiving.

Sorry for not being present on the site much lately. Hunting season in Montana and have been working on getting animals cut up before I leave for work.

Ron pretty much answered the die question.
You just buy a 30 cal Wilson micrometer inline seater blank and have your gunsmith cut and chamber the die when he does your barrel. Of course you would want an arbor press for an inline die. I use the 21st Century Gen 2 Arbor and it's great. However, an arbor press is not actually "needed" for inline dies. A rubber mallet works fine as long as you use lighter neck tension and keep your strikes straight and true.

For threaded dies, Whidden makes many seater and sizer versions of the 300 NMI. My FL sizer die was custom built by Whidden straight from my custom JGS reamer print. Never sent him any fired cases. The die John made from my print reduces body diameter of my fired cases by only .0015" so its PERFECT! I like using a Whidden FL bushing sizer die along with his custom graduated expander ball set. The expander balls allow you to control neck tension in conjunction with neck bushings to work the brass as minimally as possible and keep perfectly round IDs on the necks.

Also pick up a KM adjustable VLD chamfer tool. Works really good for consistently concentric cuts that give smooth scratch-free seating of bullets

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

Sorry for not being present on the site much lately. Hunting season in Montana and have been working on getting animals cut up before I leave for work.

Ron pretty much answered the die question.
You just buy a 30 cal Wilson micrometer inline seater blank and have your gunsmith cut and chamber the die when he does your barrel. Of course you would want an arbor press for an inline die. I use the 21st Century Gen 2 Arbor and it's great. However, an arbor press is not actually "needed" for inline dies. A rubber mallet works fine as long as you use lighter neck tension and keep your strikes straight and true.

For threaded dies, Whidden makes many seater and sizer versions of the 300 NMI. My FL sizer die was custom built by Whidden straight from my custom JGS reamer print. Never sent him any fired cases. The die John made from my print reduces body diameter of my fired cases by only .0015" so its PERFECT! I like using a Whidden FL bushing sizer die along with his custom graduated expander ball set. The expander balls allow you to control neck tension in conjunction with neck bushings to work the brass as minimally as possible and keep perfectly round IDs on the necks.

Also pick up a KM adjustable VLD chamfer tool. Works really good for consistently concentric cuts that give smooth scratch-free seating of bullets

As for the Savage not being worthy...that was obviously a joke. Hence the "" face I posted with the comment. I knew Ron wouldnt understand it because he is thin skinned and owns a Savage 338 Lap, but I figured everyone else would catch on that it was nothing more than a jest

I’m actually surprised you replied so soon. I knew you would be extra busy this time of year. Now I’m going to have the opportunity to learn about arbor presses. There’s always going to be more interesting stuff to learn about the shooting sports.

 

[rpierce]

Looks great. Only 10 lbs with optics, sounds painful no matter what brake, hopefully it’s mainly for hunting.

Its not bad at all. My 5 port kills the recoil and enables me to watch the vapor trail. Spotting hits is a breeze. Heres a video of a customer fireforming his brass w a 10 lb rifle w optics. 230 berger at 2900 fps. My wife has shot it with no issues. Heres the video,

 

[rpierce]

Theres several die makers out there like Alex suggested. Out of the die makers Ive used Ive had the best luck with Hornady and Warner. Warners are the definition of perfection. My sized brass has less than a half thou runout.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

I knew Ron wouldnt understand it because he is thin skinned and owns a Savage 338 Lap, but I figured everyone else would catch on that it was nothing more than a jest

I DO understand & very well so, as I perceive you as Not a bad guy but a perpetual "pot stirrer" Brandon. - And for what ? - To think it gives you "one-up" on somebody else ? - To provoke an incident in a thread like you've done in the past ? - To Troll for conflict ?

- Savage is not Gods gift to guns or actions and the money that I've sunk into a few of them makes me wish that I would have went with custom actions in more than one case but once a certain point is reached then I follow through & make the best of it. - It's either finish the project, or sell it and start over, or abandon it, of which the later two don't yield a break-even return.

- Ron -

 

[rpierce]

Well I haven’t had time to post any of the rifles that I’ve shipped out in quite a while. I’ll start posting them. This 300 Norma improved just got finished up today for Mitch Biggs. Shots 4,5&6 down the rifle measured .232”@100 yds while fireforming w factory Berger ammo.
The rifle has the following:
Kelbly atlas action timed to a Triggertech diamond
Manners eh1 w their ultralight 2oz cheek piece
Proof carbon barrel
Titanium self timing 5 port “Muscle” brake
APA bottom metal w a 3 round accurate mag
Henderson 3” rail
Kahles k525i bedded into a set of Hawkins Precision 6 screw rings.

 

[rpierce]

Heres one that went out to a customer in Missouri last week.

It has the following:
Defiance Deviant timed to a Triggertech diamond
Manners PRS-2 stock
Proof carbon
Titanium self timing 5 port “Muscle” brake
American Precision Arms bottom metal w a 3 round accurate mag
Kahles k525i bedded into a set of Hawkins precision 6 screw rings.

 

[effendude]

I can't wait for mine!

 

[wi50shooter]

My Norma improved has a 37 degree shoulder. So far I’m loving this thing. 230 A-tips going 3185fps, one hole groups at 100 and 1/2moa group at 516 yards yesterday. Ran that test all ammo cycled through the TRG magazine for reliability. This case feeds from the mag like butter.