22 PPC and 222 for 1000yd BR

[Evan]

Does anyone else see the three stooges? Larry? Curly? Moe? Is that you?

My 22BR, 222, and 22 PPC all together and the experiment is underway! The 222 barrel is finally back from being fixed and I've only got 2 weekends to get everything figured out. Weekend 3 is the CRC 600yd match and week 4 is 1000yd Nationals in Montana!

Here's where I'm starting with the 90 SMK: at about 0.025" into the lands. Bolt close is smooth and without any real resistance, 0.005" deeper and it drags more than I like, but 0.025" should still help minimize stretch while fireforming without needing as much grease on the lugs.

It's just about exactly where I wanted it throated! Once I get all my brass fireformed, I'll start backing out of the lands and see what it likes.

I'm still in progress getting ready for shooting on Sunday morning. The plan is to test the waters with H4198, Benchmark, IMR-3031, Varget, and Reloder 17. Not all off these are predicted to peak at the same speed. H4198 should reach ~2630fps, Benchmark should reach ~2720fps, 3031 should reach ~2740fps, Varget should get me up to ~2780fps, and the beast that is Reloder 17 should get to 2820fps. All at a predicted 58ksi and all capable of crossing 1000yds well above the transonic region up here in the thin, high altitude air.

 

[nakneker]

Does anyone else see the three stooges? Larry? Curly? Moe? Is that you?
View attachment 1573217
My 22BR, 222, and 22 PPC all together and the experiment is underway! The 222 barrel is finally back from being fixed and I've only got 2 weekends to get everything figured out. Weekend 3 is the CRC 600yd match and week 4 is 1000yd Nationals in Montana!
View attachment 1573216
Here's where I'm starting with the 90 SMK: at about 0.025" into the lands. Bolt close is smooth and without any real resistance, 0.005" deeper and it drags more than I like, but 0.025" should still help minimize stretch while fireforming without needing as much grease on the lugs.
View attachment 1573218
It's just about exactly where I wanted it throated! Once I get all my brass fireformed, I'll start backing out of the lands and see what it likes.
View attachment 1573219
I'm still in progress getting ready for shooting on Sunday morning. The plan is to test the waters with H4198, Benchmark, IMR-3031, Varget, and Reloder 17. Not all off these are predicted to peak at the same speed. H4198 should reach ~2630fps, Benchmark should reach ~2720fps, 3031 should reach ~2740fps, Varget should get me up to ~2780fps, and the beast that is Reloder 17 should get to 2820fps. All at a predicted 58ksi and all capable of crossing 1000yds well above the transonic region up here in the thin, high altitude air.

Fun! Lets us know how it goes!

 

[Evan]

Fun! Lets us know how it goes!

I'll break out the Lapua you sent me once I get my feet under me and know what the powders do. I'm secretly rooting for 3031 just because it would feel kind of special to get that combo working. Right now the starting charges for all the powders are in my Norma brass and the stout charges are in Starline - much less painful if I overdo it on a $0.30 case that I have 500 of than with the more expensive Norma or rare-as-hens-teeth Lapua.

 

[nakneker]

I'll break out the Lapua you sent me once I get my feet under me and know what the powders do. I'm secretly rooting for 3031 just because it would feel kind of special to get that combo working. Right now the starting charges for all the powders are in my Norma brass and the stout charges are in Starline - much less painful if I overdo it on a $0.30 case that I have 500 of than with the more expensive Norma or rare-as-hens-teeth Lapua.

I certainly understand where your coming from, those 90 SMKs look good in that case, fun!

 

[ASbobcat]

Fantastic thread. Great pics and data. I may have missed your barrel length?

I am building a long neck 22Tactical for 75gr ELDM, so following this very closely. Should be very close to PPC capacity.

I found the BR case to be overbore for .224. Barrel heated up very quickly. You're definitely on the right track going smaller. In my 28in 22BR, 32gr of RL17 gave 3180fps with 75gr ELDM. That was MAX! Started showing ejector swipes with Lapua brass, but bolt lift still OK.

Good luck and keep all this great info coming.

 

[Evan]

Fantastic thread. Great pics and data. I may have missed your barrel length?

I am building a long neck 22Tactical for 75gr ELDM, so following this very closely. Should be very close to PPC capacity.

I found the BR case to be overbore for .224. Barrel heated up very quickly. You're definitely on the right track going smaller. In my 28in 22BR, 32gr of RL17 gave 3180fps with 75gr ELDM. That was MAX! Started showing ejector swipes with Lapua brass, but bolt lift still OK.

Good luck and keep all this great info coming.

It’s a Bartlein 28” 5R 7 twist #9 HV contour, but the fix involved cutting off the threads and rechambering, so it currently measures 27.5” in its finished state.

 

[ASbobcat]

It’s a Bartlein 28” 5R 7 twist #9 HV contour, but the fix involved cutting off the threads and rechambering, so it currently measures 27.5” in its finished state.

Thanks

Have you considered 88gr ELDMs? Only 1in difference in drift at 1000yds, and I have found ELDMs more accurate than Matchkings, at least in 6mm.

 

[Evan]

Thanks

Have you considered 88gr ELDMs? Only 1in difference in drift at 1000yds, and I have found ELDMs more accurate than Matchkings, at least in 6mm.

I have the following in good supply to try:

80 VLD Berger
85.5 Berger
88 ELDM
90 SMK
90 VLD Berger
95 SMK

I sort the 90 SMK by base to ogive and OAL and have had excellent results with them. I struggled to tame the vertical at 1000 with the 88 ELDM. I came across a bulk buy of 90 SMK last year and got 5000 of them at $0.24 each.

 

[ASbobcat]

I have the following in good supply to try:

80 VLD Berger
85.5 Berger
88 ELDM
90 SMK
90 VLD Berger
95 SMK

I sort the 90 SMK by base to ogive and OAL and have had excellent results with them. I struggled to tame the vertical at 1000 with the 88 ELDM. I came across a bulk buy of 90 SMK last year and got 5000 of them at $0.24 each.

Really good information. Thanks.

How did BTO variance compare between 90 SMK and 88 ELDM?

 

[Evan]

100 rounds, ready to go!

 

[Evan]

Really good information. Thanks.

How did BTO variance compare between 90 SMK and 88 ELDM?

I use a hollands gold bullet comparator, and both the SMK and ELDM ended with spreads of up to 0.010". I sort to ~0.0005" by eyeballing between ticks on the dial indicator. When sorting 100 bullets for example, about 50 go into one single 0.0005" bin, and maybe another 30-40 go into the adjacent bins around it covering a total range of 0.003" or so. Pretty uniform in general but it feels good to catch those 10-20 outliers and use them for sighters. Does it matter? The jury is still out but my seating depths, measured from case shoulder to bullet ogive, became rock solid when I started sorting, and given that optimal seating windows I've found are at most 0.003" wide, it's nice to be able to get them all right where I want them.

To be honest, I haven't really given the 88 ELDM a real chance in the last 3 barrels even though they shoot phenomenally. After I got one barrel a ways back that liked to pop every other one I shot, I just have a slight mental hang-up with them. The 90 SMK is a much more durable bullet and I've never lost one on the way to the target.

 

[ASbobcat]

I use a hollands gold bullet comparator, and both the SMK and ELDM ended with spreads of up to 0.010". I sort to ~0.0005" by eyeballing between ticks on the dial indicator. When sorting 100 bullets for example, about 50 go into one single 0.0005" bin, and maybe another 30-40 go into the adjacent bins around it covering a total range of 0.003" or so. Pretty uniform in general but it feels good to catch those 10-20 outliers and use them for sighters. Does it matter? The jury is still out but my seating depths, measured from case shoulder to bullet ogive, became rock solid when I started sorting, and given that optimal seating windows I've found are at most 0.003" wide, it's nice to be able to get them all right where I want them.

To be honest, I haven't really given the 88 ELDM a real chance in the last 3 barrels even though they shoot phenomenally. After I got one barrel a ways back that liked to pop every other one I shot, I just have a slight mental hang-up with them. The 90 SMK is a much more durable bullet and I've never lost one on the way to the target.

Appreciate the info. Thanks

I just went through a small sampling of 6mm 108gr ELDM and out of 40 bullets 39 were +/-.005 BTO. One outlier was +.030. Not a large enough sampling to be statistically significant, but it proves the value of checking every bullet.

 

[JFrank]

100 rounds, ready to go!
View attachment 1573473

Nice work ‘ I look forward to seeing some small groups at the Nationals.
Stay tuned
Jim

 

[Evan]

Alrighty! It was a challenging day with weird conditions. Unusually humid, largely overcast, wind was being deceptive and mercurial.

I think the wind flag visible in this photo tells the story. You can see my 100yd target for zeroing and get speeds with the magnetospeed, and then on the hill in the distance, a tiny speck of white is my 4ft square ShotMarker target set at 500 yards.
I shot a lot of things today, so bear with me on these pictures. Priority 1 was not blowing anything up, and most of the 222 loads ended up pretty anemic.

No speeds on the Varget. Next time maybe, but it's probably in the same range as the RL17 based on elevation. Note that everything is Starline in this picture except the lonely 23.8gn of RL17 on the far right, which was Norma.

H4198 was way too slow, but still shot fine, given what everything else was doing.

21.2gns of 3031 may be approaching max. Bolt lift was fine, but the primers were starting to extrude proud around the firing pin. Cases could be re-chambered after firing, so no excessive expansion.

Benchmark looks pretty good. And finally, the 22PPC; my control case that reassured me this 222 is shooting just fine and today was just a day of wild conditions. The 2 unmarked shots were sighters from the 222, which bled over where I didn't want them due to the anemic speed, gusty wind, and your's truly not paying enough attention to his flags.

All in all, I'm happy. The 222 behaved itself admirably in the heavy wind and I'm excited to see how far it goes with fireformed brass and some tuning. Everything was just "full jam" today, and I have usually found the 90 SMK to prefer less jam than this.

 

[The boogalorian]

Alrighty! It was a challenging day with weird conditions. Unusually humid, largely overcast, wind was being deceptive and mercurial.
View attachment 1573983
I think the wind flag visible in this photo tells the story. You can see my 100yd target for zeroing and get speeds with the magnetospeed, and then on the hill in the distance, a tiny speck of white is my 4ft square ShotMarker target set at 500 yards.
I shot a lot of things today, so bear with me on these pictures. Priority 1 was not blowing anything up, and most of the 222 loads ended up pretty anemic.
View attachment 1573984
No speeds on the Varget. Next time maybe, but it's probably in the same range as the RL17 based on elevation. Note that everything is Starline in this picture except the lonely 23.8gn of RL17 on the far right, which was Norma.
View attachment 1573985
H4198 was way too slow, but still shot fine, given what everything else was doing.
View attachment 1573986
21.2gns of 3031 may be approaching max. Bolt lift was fine, but the primers were starting to extrude proud around the firing pin. Cases could be re-chambered after firing, so no excessive expansion.
View attachment 1573987
Benchmark looks pretty good. And finally, the 22PPC; my control case that reassured me this 222 is shooting just fine and today was just a day of wild conditions. The 2 unmarked shots were sighters from the 222, which bled over where I didn't want them due to the anemic speed, gusty wind, and your's truly not paying enough attention to his flags.
View attachment 1573988
All in all, I'm happy. The 222 behaved itself admirably in the heavy wind and I'm excited to see how far it goes with fireformed brass and some tuning. Everything was just "full jam" today, and I have usually found the 90 SMK to prefer less jam than this.

Thanks for posting. My 22 arc should be ready soon. Can’t wait to start load development. What kind of velocities were you getting from the 22 ppc and h4350/90smk?

 

[Evan]

Thanks for posting. My 22 arc should be ready soon. Can’t wait to start load development. What kind of velocities were you getting from the 22 ppc and h4350/90smk?

Probably 2860 up to 2890, based on the speeds I got before. I was looking for a node today and 28.4 to 28.6 seems pretty flat.

 

[Evan]

Perhaps interesting info for everyone: The fired Starline brass has a capacity of 28gns H2O and the Norma has 28.6gns H20.

Also interesting to note that the reamer was spec'ed with a 0.253 neck and the fired brass measures 0.252, which seems well aligned with my expectation after springback.

 

[Evan]

Another day in the grasslands at 500yds in my favorite spot. Today was pretty brutal hot and only a passing breeze that would gust up to 15mph or so. High 90s and VERY sunny, but as you'll see, the sweat resulted in some pleasing results for my 22 PPC and a surprising new contender: 3031!

Berger 90VLD didn't show much magic today, but this is my first go with them in the PPC and I'll give it a much more thorough try before writing them off and moving on. The 90 SMK is showing some really fantastic groups though!

And:

Holy moly! We'll have to see if that repeats. The groups on either side suggest it may have been pure luck.

Now on to the 222. I was shooting virgin Lapua and Norma brass today. This is rounds 101 through 200 on the barrel, and there is an odd smattering of stuff shown. Please note that the 3031 loads are WAY hot at the top end. Like, REALLY hot. Do not try this at home, kids!



I'm not impressed with the 222 yet, but it is still early, the brass is entirely virgin, and this is clearing a new path into uncharted territory. Some of the groups are in the right ballpark, size-wise, so I think that fireformed brass, and seating depth tweaks, will tell the true story of what it can do. The 22 PPC just flew to new heights today and stole the show.

 

[The boogalorian]

Your 22 ppc rl 15.5 and h4350 loads, are they compressed a lot? Do you have velocities to share with those powders? Thanks. I appreciate you sharing your results.

 

[JFrank]

I suspect you’ll start eliminating some combos soon and concentrate on one or two. I like the H4350 or the Varget in the 22 ppc, I like the overlap at about 29.55 .
I’ve tested my tail off up here at 500 yards and actually over tested’ a couple days ago I watched my node / overlap move down a couple tenth’s from 31.0 to 30.7 so now I’m second guessing myself with a week and a half before I leave for DC, I have one last ladder set up with calm conditions in the forcast for late next week ( afternoon ) when I get the best sight picture.